Beth Campbell, Wilson Associates

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: Hi, I’m here with Beth Campbell of Wilson Associates. Beth, thanks so much for joining us today. How are you?

Beth Campbell: I’m wonderful. Thank you so much for having me.

SSR: Yeah. We’re so excited to have you. How are you? How are you coping with this new, as I call it, the new abnormal because it’s really not normal?

BC: That’s right. Yeah. It’s definitely not normal. It is absolutely abnormal on every front. Definitely filled with uncertainty, but personally, I’m doing quite well. I’m very fortunate. I have a really strong family around me. And we at Wilson were able to have our platform set up that we could shift to being virtual very quickly. So, the workflow seemed to just be a natural evolution.

But the deepest part and the best reality for me is that I traveled before this 95 percent of the time. And so going from being on the road most days out of the month to zero has just been really great for my wellbeing. So, I’m trying to really take advantage of that. A lot of strategic planning, writing, reading, and working out every day, and all those things that you miss when you travel on the road. So, I’m doing great.

SSR: I was saying to someone today that I think it’s been the longest I’ve been with my kids since maternity leave, which is super sad to say, but when you travel all the time, I mean, it’s a forced non-travel, but it’s nice to take a breath and look around a little bit.

BC: Yeah. It has been great. Yeah. I was talking to a friend the other day, a hedge-fund guy that he’s working remotely as well. And we were talking about the fact that he brought it up that we went to grad school together, and he’s like, ‘Beth, you haven’t been in one zip code or timezone for more than three days in two years. Nor have you been home this long since you moved to San Francisco in 2004.’ So, this is really just a really refreshing change for me. And like you, I’m trying to take advantage of it and trying to find the positives inside.

SSR: And you are in Las Vegas, correct?

BC: I do I live in Las Vegas. Yeah. So, with the travel all the time, I had a flat in Venice Beach in California, but I sold that actually, soon after taking this position. So, there’s no need for two homes. I made this my home base for all my travels.

SSR: How is it in Las Vegas right now? I mean, a place that thrives on hospitality. I mean, it must be eerie to drive down that road right now.

BC: It really is. It’s very otherworld. You feel like you just drove into a Stephen King movie or something. And so, just taking a look at that from our breadth, it is almost uneasy and that’s what drew me to Las Vegas and to the keeper residence in Las Vegas, even after I moved out of here was just that everybody’s here for one purpose. And that is for hospitality. And that is for engaging with guests and with tourists.

Everybody in this community has that same mindset. So, even on lockdown, we all have this, we’re in it together mentality, and we’re going to get through it. And so, it’s a great support system. And we’re all talking with each other and sharing stories and trying to figure out how we’re going to navigate what I call the next normal, what’s going to happen post-pandemic? As far as that, it’s a fantastic community to be part of. So, it’d be really great to see how we evolve here with the hospitality business, with the travel and the tourism, with the newfound normals that are going to come out of a germ-laden pandemic.

SSR: I think that’s a good segue in that, what do you think is going to be the next normal? I mean, if you had your crystal ball, how are you viewing this or how are you all at Wilson examining—you’re such a powerhouse firm—examining what is this next normal?

BC: It’s definitely an intriguing time to be a designer, to be thrust into the middle of one of these innovative moments, right? And that’s what Winston Churchill said, don’t waste a good crisis. And so, we’re definitely in crisis mode. But out of every downturn, every recession, every depression is when all the innovative ideas come through. And that’s when the curiosity, you’re allowed to tap into that. As an organization, we’re actually working on that. We’re working with some clients jointly and some separately, just trying to drive solutions of what’s going to be the next normal. And, for example, we’re studying how you can look at check-in at a massive integrated resort such as the Flamingo here in Las Vegas. You’re no longer going to stand shoulder to shoulder and align with 500 people. So, how does that change?

We’re working on that. The other normals that we’re looking at are restaurants, because that really cool hip chic bistro that you love, like you’re sitting elbow to elbow with strangers. Is that going to change? Those are the things that we’re looking at is how, because people are still going to want to engage, but there is going to be caution. I’m sure right out of the gate, it’s going to be extremely cautious, and we’re going to evolve back, but I don’t think we’ll get back to the jamming 300 people into 100-seat restaurant. I think those days will evolve.

SSR: But I think it’s a good challenge to look at what is next, and what could be, right? I mean, it’s a little forced, but I think this industry is the best in terms of innovation. So, I think it’s an exciting time, like you said, or an interesting time to be a designer.

BC: Completely agree, completely agree. It’s very fun. It’s stimulating. So, we’re just trying to use that also as another avenue to allow people to connect between regions, between offices, and between their homes, right? And so, we have a lot of people that are living by themselves in a 600-square-foot flat in New York or somebody out on a ranch by themselves in Texas. And so, it’s how do you get them so they don’t feel isolated? And so, we’re actually using these conversation points to stimulate a dialogue and actually design competitions internally. So, it’s fun.

SSR: That’s great. And can you tell me, I guess it’s good too to check in, obviously, with what’s happening at Wilson? I mean, how are you continuing that dialogue amongst teams that as you said are very spread out in different areas ? And what are you doing as a CEO to try to help your team cope?

BC: Those are some really great questions. It’s been the forefront of everything, and every leader, I’m sure, across the globe. But as far as Wilson today, it’s just a very interesting time for the industry and particularly, Wilson. Like I said, we’re fortunate enough to have the platform that allowed us to go virtual very quickly. And so, we went to 100 percent virtual in a matter of days. But then, of course, once we knew that our staff and our talent was safe, then we quickly shifted our focus to how we can collaborate. So, during the pandemic, communication for Wilson has shifted. We always have very deep transparency, very broad messaging. But at this particular season, what we have done is we’ve created a landing page inside of our intranet that has all the updates that they need from what’s happening in their sister offices to links for the CDC, and any podcasts from me, any design updates from our creative directors. And so, we’re using that as a tool. I have a tendency to do podcasts. I try to do, it’s not measured or scheduled, but it’s just when it feels right. So, it can be anywhere from every few days to at least one a week. And so, we’ve really been focusing on getting messages out about the health, and the wellbeing of the company, the continuity of workflow, just so they understand what we’re focused on and what we’re working on.

But lately, I’ve been talking a lot. My last few podcasts haven’t been about the next normal, which is looking forward via business development, client relationships, design projects, and what projects have been put on hold, and where can we force to help. So, then also, what we have found, it’s really important to keep in touch at the local level. And so, what we’ve created as a platform, we use Zoom like many, many companies, and we have weekly resourcing meetings where the entire studio gets on a Zoom call face-to-face. I don’t want to say it’s a formal meeting, but it’s definitely a meeting. And then at the end of the week, most of the offices have a happy hour. They do something, they play a game, they do something innovative.  So, bookending in the week, we have the happy hours at the end of the week, but then more of the resourcing, and planning, and alignment meeting on Monday. And then we go down a step further, and we go into more project meetings. And so, daily, we have scrums, which means they all jump on a Zoom at the beginning of the day, project-based teams, and they talk for about 15 minutes to talk about the day, and what’s happening.

Those are the broader pictures of how we’re focused, but in between all that is the individual, right? And so, that’s really important to me, to my corporate leadership team. What we’re focused on is the challenge because not everybody is like me that is enjoying some quiet time and not traveling. Some people are not navigating this new work life integration scene. With the new boundaries and controls and focused on safety and wellbeing. So, we’re shifting to try, and help, and make sure that we have the best interest of the individuals too. So, if we hear of somebody that isn’t quite coping well, or maybe not navigating as strongly, we quickly put a team around them, get more enhanced project meetings, etc. We’re trying to get, because it’s the individuals, it’s all the ‘mes’ that make up the we, and so we have to take care of the ‘mes’ to make the we stronger.

SSR: I think that is so, so important. And I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges from all the people that I’ve spoken with over the past four weeks is just how do you manage a team effectively when you can’t see them every single day. And it’s not so much having to see them, but just creating that sense of community and culture that you’ve worked so hard to do in the office space. Just so everyone can get an idea who might not know Wilson as well as they should, how big is Wilson? How many offices do you have?

BC: Well, within Wilson, we have 11 studios around the globe. And we are 280 people strong. We have about 235 designers. The rest of us are support and leadership. And so, with that breadth, you can imagine with 11 offices we have, we range anywhere from 10 people in an office to the average size is about 25 to 30. And then we have our Singapore office, which has 70 people in it because it covers a big market footprint. We have a range, a diverse setting of offices, but mostly we’re fairly nimble and we work across offices anyways. This is just shifting and forcing us to work inside of a new level of collaboration, a new avenue of collaboration, a new depth of collaboration and communication. That’s who Wilson is.

SSR: And has there been one office that has seemingly been not easier isn’t the right word, but COVID has an affected it as much or is it across the board very similar?

BC: It’s very similar. I mean, we’re 100 percent. Well, obviously, our Shanghai office is now back to work in full force, right? So, they’re back and every single office outside of China is now on mandatory shutdown. So, everybody within Wilson is working remotely, except for the beautiful souls in China who had to go through this first. And so, as far as navigating this, it’s an intriguing play on leadership styles and keeping everybody buoyed together.

But then on top of that, it’s also workload, right? Some offices are getting way too much work because clients are doing the, ‘Hey, we have a restaurant shot, let’s hurry up and scramble and get this renovation done. Go find me supplies that you can find me during when all the manufacturers aren’t working because we want to do the renovation as soon as we can,’ to the larger projects are still rolling along. And then we have other offices where we have the big projects that have stopped. And so, it’s a matter of balancing resources and workloads. That’s how we’re navigating the complexity. We’re actually using it to shift around the workloads to make sure everybody is taken care of, and then the clients are provided for.

SSR: That’s extremely smart. I mean, how much would you say is on hold versus still active? Would you say it’s an even mix or leaning one way or the other?

BC: That’s intriguing. No. It’s actually no. It’s mostly moving forward. We’re very fortunate. We have a small number that are on hold. One large project, and two midsized projects, but the other projects are all going. And then on top of that, we’ve been released to do some new projects because people have more time. Our clients have more time, right? They’re sitting in front of the computer to make decisions, and they want to get started. And so, we had two major projects in LA for Southern California to get started. And so, it’s just this interesting time that we’re actually have a higher productivity right now than we did before the pandemic.

SSR: That’s really interesting. And it’s an optimist outlook because I feel like there’s been so much doom and gloom, so to hear that there are projects still going, and people not on plane. So, wanting to do work and get things started is a good thing to hear.

BC: I am an eternal optimist, and I know that Wilson is very fortunate with our current position being able to work remotely, being a boutique and being our size, we can be really nimble, right? We’re a bunch of little flotilla of ships that can move around. But in between all that, I nor my leadership team is naïve. We understand if it goes on too long, things could continue to shift and slow down or adjust. And so, we just have to be very fleet afoot and be ready so that we can continue to protect our staff, job one, job two is then making sure that we’re meeting the needs of the clients, like how are we doing that. And I had a candid conversation with a client this week, I said, ‘If you need a stop, that’s the right thing for your business. We’ll stop, just tell us.’ And it has to be a dialogue. It has to be that true relationship with clients. That’s how we’re going to get through all this together as a collective in our industry.

SSR: No, for sure. And so, let’s pivot a little bit to you and your story to share with our listeners. So, tell us, did you always want to be a designer going into this field, something that you’re born with? And if so, tell us a little bit about your childhood and how that might have influenced how you got to where you are today?

BC: My childhood was quite fantastic. I’m very fortunate. I have an amazing family. My parents are just loving and supportive, but also very hard. I grew up in the Northeast/Midwest outside Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And so, it was a very working-class culture. My parents owned restaurants, and I started working in the restaurant when I was 10 years old, washing dishes and worked my way up to line cook and short-order cook, and all the way up to managing the restaurant by the time I was 15 or 16.

I started at a very early age and this will tell my age, it was in the ’70s. That was back in the day where you would go to, it wasn’t quite Don Draper, but it was close where the parents would go to a cocktail party, and you’d take the kids, and the parents would be upstairs drinking, and the kids would be either out in the yard or downstairs. And then we’d go home, and when we get home, after everybody went to sleep, I’d get a flashlight and I draw the people’s house that we were just in, and then I’d redraw it and fix it. So, I was about 7 or 8 when I started doing that. My dad noticed that I was doing this. He graciously one day I came home from school, and there was a drafting board in my bedroom with a light, and he said, ‘Don’t you dare tell your mother you’re up late drawing.’

I’ve always had an eye to drawing, and to design, and to space, and to experiencing spaces. And a few years later, a really good friend of the family had studied under Frank Lloyd Wright, and I lived in a really small town. It’s been in multiple movies, and we walked home from school every day. When I’d walk home, I’d stop at his office. And every day, he’d give me a Frank Lloyd Wright book. And if I had known then what he was giving me, they were signed by Frank Lloyd Wright, he would just hand it to me. I would take it home, a couple days later, I’d bring it back. And so, I just got really immersed and I can’t ever remember not wanting to be an architect. I just have always been enamored with the thought, the concept that you can have an idea in your head, and then people will be then experiencing it a year later or two years later or what have you. I’ve always been enticed and maybe romanticized the concept of being an architect.

SSR: So many great things from that. Two follow up questions. One, what was the town that you grew up in, and what movie was it in? And two, what type of restaurants did your parents run? And is their favorite memory, or what was your favorite memory from working there growing up?

BC: So, the town that I grew up in, we always got made fun of, it’s Beaver, Pennsylvania. So, it’s north of Pittsburgh, Beaver Falls. We’re across the river, and it’s Beaver, and it’s the county seat. My parents moved us to that town because it was at the time, one of the top high schools, education systems. And so, we could get the right elementary and high school education. And so, in that time, my parents owned two, soon-to-be three restaurants. They were very much family restaurants. They were literally called Campbell’s Family Restaurant. And the first one started with a big deli and a deli counter, and then a diner in the back. The second one evolved, and the third one just became a full-on restaurant. He always did catering. It was just such a great experience. I can tell you that I never slept past 4 a.m., and that’s why I get up now by 4, that’s like sleeping in for me. So, it’s just ingrained to me in an early point.

I think one of my favorite memories from working at my parents’ restaurants has to be just the people, how everybody came in, and everybody still to this day, I walk down the street and they’re like, ‘Hey, it’s Beth. Oh, it’s Jerry’s daughter.’ They walk in, they always knew my dad. He would make a deal, broker a deal on the spot. He was always so gracious. For example, if somebody needed their kid’s high school graduation catered, but down at the steel mill, they weren’t getting paid for two months, my dad would be like, ‘Don’t worry about it.’ He was just very much compassionate, and [all about] taking care of people and building those relationships, and he never wanted for anything. Meaning, everybody always came back to him, and it just paid off in the long run. So, I’ve learned so much from observing that from an early age, and I think that plays into who I am obviously as an adult, and how I handle my staff, and our clients is a top priority.

So, as far as the movies that were filmed in our hometown, the one that resonates the most with me because we all got to be in it. We all got to feed the movie stars, was Gung Ho. I don’t know if you remember that from the ’80s. It was a pretty okay movie, but it was completely filmed 100 percent in my hometown with all of our sports teams, all of our everything. So, that movie was really quite great. So, that would have been, I don’t know, maybe ’84. But before and after that, there’s just tons of movies that are filmed. They use the downtown, it’s your basic four parks on the square, and the church on one side, the post office on the other, the courthouse on the other, and there used to be a hospital on that one, but we had to build a bigger hospital. So, it’s just this quintessential little old town that actually George Washington visited in the winter of Valley Forge. So, anyway, so it’s just a very picturesque place that has lots of movies film there.

SSR: Love it. So, this love of design, and drawing, and drafting, I guess it was a natural fit then to go to school for architecture and design. Is that the path that you followed?

BC: Yeah, absolutely. I went to Kent State in Ohio. I applied at Kent, got into the general program. And then applied to the architecture program, went up, and did the interview and got accepted to all of it before I even told my family I was doing it.

SSR: So, after school, what was your first job, or did you do internships in school that led you to your first job, or tell us what was next?

BC: Yeah. I did a series of internships throughout architecture school, and it was a mix. I work for a large firm, Michael Baker engineering. I worked for a small firm, Tommy Cox. Another summer, I actually worked at Michael Baker, but I worked in the accounting department. So, it was just an opportunity for me to see how the business side was run because I’ve always had a proclivity toward business. So, that whet my whistle there for a hot minute.

Upon graduation, I took a job in a really great small firm, it’s about 32 people in Sharon, Pennsylvania, so further north. And we focused on schools, elementary schools, high school, and universities, and did some other public works type projects. So, it was an amazing learning experience. And that was back in the day when everything was drawn by hand, and it was ink on mylar, so it was the very end of that genre, that phase of delivery. And so, just there were some really amazing architects there that I got to learn from and go on to job sites with. So, it’s a really good memory for me. It was a great learning experience.

SSR: Wonderful. And then, you spent 16 years at Gensler, both in Las Vegas and San Francisco. How did you end up at Gensler, and can you tell us about your role that apparently probably evolved over the years? But tell us about your journey there.

BC: It was such an amazing journey. I mean, Gensler is just one of the top organizations, right? I learned so, so much, amazing people in that organization, amazing leaders that always took time, and taught me, and would sit me down when I would go off the rails, or try to bully through things or what have you. They were very good coaches. And so, I ended up actually in Chicago again. So, I moved there for a boy. Of course, it’s another story. Of course, I’d say the story that Chicago worked out and the marriage didn’t, but it was really great to get to Chicago. I started at Gensler there. I worked in Chicago, was it four years? And then I went to San Francisco for eight. As Gensler does, they sent me there to help on a project and when I got there, it was the dead of winter. I was not going back to Chicago, so I stayed. It was a very short conversation.

And then, so when I was in Chicago, it was very much project management, senior project management, very large, complex projects, working with the amazing and great Lamar Johnson, who ran that office in that region. And then I went to San Francisco. There, I had the great experience of working with one of the best designers I know, Gervais Tompkins, and we worked on a series of corporate workplace projects, particularly global rollouts for Hewlett Packard and Salesforce. That was really just such a great learning experience.

And at that point, I was again, traveling 80 percent of the time, and then I came back from a trip, and David Gensler, who became a friend of mine throughout the course of my time at Gensler, sat me down and asked me if I’d be interested in going to Las Vegas because they wanted to realign the direction of the Vegas office. After finishing CityCenter, they just wanted to freshen up, and change the approach to the city into how work gets done. And so, I can tell you that was a much longer conversation. But once I got here, as I said at the onset, I love this city. And so, working here I got a great, great experience with Gensler working on massive projects for Caesars Entertainment, and we got to work with Britney Spears and do the Access Theater. We did a couple other bank headquarter office buildings off the Strip. So, it was just a really great time, and it was amazing learning to be a managing director and learn how to run the P&L of an office within such a major global organization like Gensler.

SSR: Right. I know you mentioned a couple, but was there one project that stuck with you that defines your time there? And were there any lessons learned, as you said, from working at one of the most admired and industry’s biggest firms?

BC: Yeah. I would have to say the most prominent project in my history that stands out in my head. One individual project would have to be the PNC tower, which is the PNC Bank in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We were sitting at lunch every Monday in San Francisco, all the studio heads, directors, and partners would get together, and talk about what was happening and what was going on. And Doug Gensler was there, and Doug and I are the same age. And Doug was like, ‘Hey, we have a project in Pittsburgh, anybody want to run a project in Pittsburgh and go to Pittsburgh one week a month for the next three years?’ And I raised my hand. I’m like, ‘Yes, please.’ And so, it ended up being this amazing mixed-use building that won all kinds of design awards. Very fortunate, the client was so forward-thinking, very green in their approach, very open to design ideas. I partnered with Hao Ko, he was the creative director from Gensler, Ben Tranel was the technical director, and then I managed. The three of us learned that that’s how you can get a really big complex project done. So, we handle the shell and core. We had a separate Gensler team out of [Washington, DC] handling the Reed Smith law firm inside the building. And then Boston handled all the corporate workplace for PNC.

SSR: That’s amazing. And I mean, 16 years, I’ve been I’ve been with HD now 18, but I feel like it just comes and goes so fast. I mean, looking back, sometimes you’re like, ‘Oh my gosh, I can’t believe I was there for that long.’ But what made you decide to leave Gensler, and where did you go from there?

BC: Well, it was one of those moments in life where you get these inner callings, and I had about a year where I was actually just talking. I have an executive coach, and I have what I would call my personal corporate board, we’re just having conversations to the point that I have the inclination so much that I literally got a tattoo that says it’s time on my left wrist. Most people can’t see it because it’s under my watch, but it’s for me, it’s for me, and it’s telling me that during that time, it just felt like there was something more I wanted to do, and I could have been content to stay there, but it was not there being Gensler Las Vegas, I just felt there was something else I wanted to learn, and grow, and do because Gensler is a fantastic place, but it’s also a really big place.

And so, with amazing leadership and board, and I just wasn’t sure I was ready to wait that out. And so, in the midst of all that, I actually got a job offer from Westfield, the developers in LA, which was a move I wasn’t expecting to make. But I can tell you going to the client side was so eye-opening. Westfield development does fantastic developments. And what drew me there is not that it’s a mall developer. It’s that they were developing land. Each mall has 85 to 100 acres, and the mall takes up 15 of that. So, the rest, what are we going to do with it? So, we were working on developments for the rest of that. And so, I was graciously allowed to handle $11 billion in design. It was really fun and super complex and fast. And just getting to see it from the client side really opened my eyes. But it allowed me to understand how developers work, and how the clients have to go through approval processes and fundings and all of that. So, I learned so much during that time, and here again, that was only two years.

And I would have loved for it to be longer, but the Lowy family that owned Westfield decided to sell to a French company. And they switch from being a developer to being an operator.  I mean, I had a package, I could have stayed for probably another two years. They asked me to stay much longer, but it was basically, ‘We need you to stay, but just sit here quietly until we get ourselves organized for the next two years.’ And I was thinking I am not sitting quietly for two years. So, I quickly went out and actually was interesting because I was interviewing, I was about to say yes to a major hotel operator on the East Coast to come in and be the head of design. And then this opportunity for Wilson came along. I was last minute for them, they were last minute for me, I was about to sign with this other company. But it just seemed like a puzzle piece that fit, allowing me to use all of my skills, to influence people’s lives, and to make an impact in our industry. And so, I jumped at it.

SSR: What was it that drew you to Wilson? I mean, was it the company itself, the culture, or the opportunity? I mean, what was it, or was it all of the above? 

BC: Yeah. There was a couple of reasons. First of all, I mean, let’s be honest, it’s just Wilson is such a fantastic brand. You stop and think about what Trish Wilson built, right? And I always tell people, anytime I go in an interview, I’m like, ‘I’m standing on the shoulders of giants.’ And so, it drew me to that aspect, to the brand side of things. But at the same time, during my interview process, it was one of those wonderful interviews that was in Hong Kong. And so, I had to fly over, do the meeting, and fly back. So, I was on the ground for about seven hours and that included a shower and going to the interview for six hours, and then flying back. But it was a complete adrenaline rush, but when I was talking with them, I quickly realized that what was the opportunity for improvement at Wilson at the time was all around culture.

The brand is great, the people are amazing. But what had happened in the past five years since the parent company in China had bought Wilson, there had been a change in CEOs twice, and both are amazing men, both do fantastic work, but they had taken different styles. The jumping started to fracture how the company works. Wilson at the time I came in was 100 percent siloed, meaning competing against offices and each other. That’s why I really took it. There’s been a fantastic undertaking in organizational behavior in structural design of a company. That is the underlying reason, and the reason that keeps me going is that the people are amazing, and the design is fantastic. So, it’s really been fun so far.

SSR: Yeah. And I love what you said, that you are standing on the shoulders of giants because I mean, I think what the likes of Trisha Wilson or Michael Bedner have created back in the day these firms that redefined what hospitality was, and meant, and created these iconic projects that everyone has learned off of in the past decade. And so, how long have you been there now?

BC: It’s almost two years. We’re getting very close to two years here now.

SSR: Congratulations.

BC: Thank you.

SSR: The last two years, I’m sure have been a whirlwind. But is there something that you’ve been proud of? I mean, talk a little bit maybe more about how you’ve unsiloed them? I think that’s a really interesting concept and something that others could learn from.

BC: I love that question, first of all. And I find it intriguing because I did a similar thing when I came to Gensler in Las Vegas. And then I did it on a bigger scale when I went to Westfield just with the design team because there was about 100 people in that design team. And then coming here to Wilson, the actual application, you get the concept, and it’s around the messaging. What you start by doing is, this is going to be my next book by the way, but what you start by doing is framing up where are the opportunities and where are the real problems. You get rid of the initial problems immediately; you address them, you get them solved, you move them out of the company, whether it’s a person or it’s a platform or something, you get that fixed immediately.

But then what you start to do is you work then as a grassroots effort. I found very quickly because I spent the first three months in discovery mode, and I went to every single office around the globe, and spent a week and talked to every person and tried to capture as much information as I could. And I quickly realized that the fact is, is these are all the same people, they’re just not marching to the same drum beat. So, we were in one tribe, we just didn’t speak the same language, nor march to the same beat. That’s what needed to shift. It got down to breaking down those silos by telling them that it was okay to work with each other. Creating opportunities to pursue projects together, and then just make it the norm. I started by making it a requirement, but we started doing is we started sharing between offices.

And we switched, and we went into a regional structure, which then allowed us to then share between offices, we changed our leadership model to allow my four lieutenants, if you will, be the ones that have that very deep and pervasive emotional intelligence that allowed them to guide the team and empower the frontline. Because that’s the key is you have to empower, there can’t be any command and control. There can’t be any legacy, I deserve this because I’ve been here X years. It has to be about the people in the frontline. And so, creating an environment for them. So, those were the keys that allowed us to unlock this treasure trove. We’re not there yet, but we’re working on it. We did create a complete turnaround strategy around talent, HR, and learning around our operational platform, around our design excellence. We’re building on all of that information and intel. We’re working as a collective, versus a series of silos.

SSR: I love that. And I love how you led with emotional intelligence too because I feel like so much of design is built around that emotional connection, that experience. How do you change a person’s wellbeing or thought process with a with a space? That just makes so much sense to have people that lead that way to think that way because I think that trickles down to the design that you can create or the buildings that you create.

BC: I couldn’t agree more. I love what you’re saying. And the most simplistic terms, the success was found by coming to the individual, lifting their chin to the horizon so they could see that there’s a world out there. Instead of looking at the tops of their toes and getting the heck out of their way, that’s what you need to do. So, creating that platform and environment allowed them to work, but then showed them that there’s a life out there, and they’re free to go get it. And so, you create with guide rails versus nailing somebody’s foot to the floor, right? So, it’s this flow. And that’s why it’s been so successful and so strong within Wilson. It’s really actually hearkening back to the days. I have people that have been here since Trish started the organization, and they’re like, ‘We’re finally back to what Trish wanted this to be.’ So, it feels really good, and it’s resonating with the staff, and like you said, the design is just getting better and better because of that freedom of mindset, and the ability to create and to be who you want to be.

SSR: So, you can make a mistake and then pivot back around, is that what you’re saying?

BC: Yes. The fact is, is that we created an environment that allows you to make mistakes and quickly pivot back to get the right solution going forward. And it’s a quick learning environment for our staff.

SSR: Just must hearing that, people are like, this is back to what Trish wanted. And obviously, you want to evolve how the firm has been, but it must feel good as a leader to get back to the roots of a company, and I know you said you’re not there yet. But to even get to a place where you start hearing that must be refreshing from your position.

BC: It’s absolutely refreshing and the reason is what drives me every day is just talking to everybody, to talking to the designers, to talking to our accounting team, to talking to our HR team, whoever it is, and talking with them, and understanding what’s working and what’s not. And then actually giving them that avenue to express what they’re really feeling, which they haven’t been able to do for the last four or five years. Giving them that freedom, but then the key is listening to them, and then compiling all that information, and then putting a plan together how to apply it, right? The other key thing is being truthful, being authentic and saying, ‘I hear what you’re saying, There’s no way we’re going to be able to do that, or you know what, I I’m going to be honest with you, I have to table that until next year because we just can’t do that in this year’s budget, or we’re stuck in this place, and we can’t move tomorrow, but I love the idea.’ So, it’s about being authentic and honest while listening, engaging, and making changes wherever you can.

SSR: Which is easier said than done, right? I mean, figuring out how to rebuild, or relook at, or reexamine a culture and encouraging people to lean into that and to embrace change because the new CEO can be scary, right? That can mean a lot of different things. I don’t envy your role, but I very much respect what you’ve done and how you are handling it. Managing people, and you can tell me if I’m right or wrong, is probably the hardest part and the most exciting part of your job because that’s what creates the culture and the company that you want to create.

BC: You’re spot on with that. It is all about the people and I keep saying that to our leadership team and to my board of directors. It’s about the people, right? You have to take care of your talents. You have to take care of your clients, and you have to create an environment that allows the two to get the best out of each other. And then, us as the leadership team, just get out of the way, and be there to support, and help, and interject if asked, or when needed. So, like you said, it sounds very simple. And quite honestly, again, Wilson is 280 people. We can do these things. So, we’re big enough to have an impact when we make these changes, but we’re also small enough that we can turn the ship very quickly.

SSR: For sure. And speaking of clients, you’ve mentioned a few times over the course of our conversation, and you were on the client side at Westfield. What do you think makes a successful collaboration? I mean, how do you approach how you all work with clients, or how do you teach your people how to work with clients before COVID, and now, during COVID?

BC: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting that you ask that, again, it comes down to human behavior, it comes down to emotional intelligence, which are all part of being a leader. And so, that’s the other thing we instill was, no matter who you are, you’re a leader in this organization. If you’re answering the phone at our office in LA, you are the voice of our LA office. So, you have to present yourself well. And so, we instill that mindset everywhere, and everybody has bad days and things go sideways at time, and I appreciate that and I get that.

But at the same time, we’re so heavily focused on understanding what the client’s needs are. And so, that’s really also what’s very intriguing to Wilson from the client standpoint because you don’t walk in a space and go, ‘Oh, this is a Wilson space, or oh, look at that. That lobby reception desk is it has to be done by Wilson.’ We don’t have that, right? Our brand and our moniker is actually that we do the right design solution for the client’s brand in that particular location. With that mindset from the get, we have our team sitting in the room, asking questions and trying to figure out who the client is. So, that really deepens the relationship. That has afforded us and allowed us to continue to prosper the individuals who are extremely good at that. And then also encourage them to teach the younger staff to understand that that is the key thing. You can be the best designer in the world, but if you don’t have a client, you’re not going to design anything. So, you need to understand that it’s a marriage of those two mindsets.

And what’s interesting right now is that, particularly, we have, I’m going to use one major client, is on furlough. It’s an integrated resort. And so, what we had to do as a team was we had to figure out how do we communicate with a client that isn’t there? Because we’re not allowed to talk to them until they come back to work. That could be four weeks, it could be six, it could be eight. Now, mind you, if it goes too long, there’ll be a point where we’ll have to stop, but what we had to do was figure out a method for us to continue to move forward because we can work with the design and construction team who’s still working here at corporate in Vegas. But the fact is, how do we bring everybody else (the people, the actual end users, the operations team, the casino managers, all that staff on location food and beverage) in a story when they come back, knowing that when they come back, their life is going to be insane, right? Just trying to catch up, and get their property reopened, and get their staff back mobilized.

But at the same time, our project still has to open when it has to open. What we have to do is we’re challenging our team to make sure that we’re approaching our design solutions and our decision-making on a weekly basis. And we’re capturing that so that we can very quickly and easily bring them along toward the end. We’re actually putting together a book that we’re going to give to each of those operations players at the site, the executives at the site that are not able to interact with us right now so that they have something that they can leave through, read, and get up to speed, and then we can have a meeting with them. So, it’s avenues like that that we’re trying to find here again, the right solution for our clients.

SSR: And through all of the last two years and what you’ve  worked through with Wilson, there’s probably been some hard choices as well. I mean, you’ve had to make some changes, can you speak a little bit to not the specific changes, but how you as a leader approached them and just going through the process to get to the result that you wanted to get to?

BC: Yeah. We’ve had some very difficult conversations and some difficult decisions, and they have ruffled some feathers. But the fact of the matter is, is that we have to make hard decisions for the good of the rest of Wilson, for everybody else. In particular, we had a few legacy players that had this entitlement along with them. I don’t mind that, fantastic designers, fantastic players, etc. But at the same time, did not fit the model going forward. And once it gets to a point that it’s stifling the growth of that office, that region, or that market, or a particular client segment, that’s when we have to step in and make the hard choice. What I do in those particular situations is I have conversations with these individuals. I start with more of the, I don’t want to say lighter, but more of the like, ‘Okay, what’s working, what’s not, can I do more to help you, here’s what I’m hearing from the client.’ Then those conversations evolve and grow until either the individual understands what needs to adjust. So, that means they have to have a growth mindset. Or if they’re in a fixed mindset, saying, ‘I’ve seen this movie before, I know the script, the CEO is not going to last. I’m just going to ride this one out.’ Those are the ones that we have to have a very different discussion with, and the results are very distinctly than what they expect.

SSR: Never easy to be the one making these decisions and changes. And what keeps you motivated and passionate about all this, about the industry? Because I do think too, as you go from being a designer in working your way up, and eventually becoming CEO. I mean, you move further away from what you started at doing. And your role changes, obviously, as people grow, but you’re still very involved in the industry, and what Wilson is doing. As your role has changed, as you have stepped into these different shoes to fill throughout your career, what has kept you motivated, what has kept you passionate about design, and especially hospitality?

BC: Well, inherently I’m a learner. I love to learn and challenge the status quo in me, the thinking that I may have had. I also came to realize at a very early age, I think it was Matin Zargari. She was Gensler. What served you to make you strong in your past role is not necessarily that’s going to make you good in your next role. And that was very young, that was probably, gosh, sorry Matin, 15, 20 years ago. And so, the fact of the matter is, is that if you look at it from that viewpoint, you’re always changing and evolving. And so, what I’ve done throughout that process in getting certified as an executive coach myself, and knowing that I’m so in tuned with human behavior, emotional intelligence, and understanding people is such a key attribute in any leadership role. I really get excited and passionate about my team.

I can be having a down day even now, and I jump on Zoom with somebody in London or somebody from the LA team, and we talk about what they’re working on, or we just brainstorm about ideas. And like, ‘Okay, we’re working so well remotely, do we even have to go back to work.’ And that play and interaction is just really important to me. And so, able to do that and to continue to make an impact in their lives while we as a collective are influencing the industry in how we work, that’s what really drives me. And then of course, it doesn’t hurt to look at these amazing projects that we generate. And just then the happy satisfied clients, and you walk in, and all the guests are so happy at these hotels. And so, it’s just the combination of those two things are what really get me get me kicking.

SSR: And I mean, from your level, you can’t be involved in every project, but how involved are you just to stay on top of what’s happening in design, and share your experience, or work through things with people, where do you step in or step out of projects?

BC: Yeah. Great question. And there is that longing to be involved in projects again, I just remember there were times when people like, ‘Oh, why are you at my desk sketching?’ It would scare them, but honestly, I really don’t have time for that level of involvement right now. However, there are some key clients that are legacy clients of mine. And it followed me in my career for the last 15, 20 years that as the teams are working on their projects, I definitely stay in tune, I get updates. One in particular is moving very quickly right now. It’s a massive project for Caesars, and so my design director on that, Joyce Lynn, she gives me updates on a weekly basis. But outside of that, I really count on the creative directors, I count on my regional managing directors. Those are my four first lieutenants that are that I trust to make everything happen every day, they give me updates.

And so, I get insights on what’s happening because I just don’t want to hear what’s going wrong. That’s not going to keep me stimulated, and that’s not really going to help us guide the organization forward. We have this network, and it is a little bit of structure, but it’s a little bit loose, which actually works better with designers. That’s how I stay in tune with things. There’re some clients that I really, really stay on top of, and I actually still go to some client meetings. But at the same time, I don’t want to bog things down or slow things down. So, it’s an integral balance that I strike.

SSR: Yes. That was another fine line, it must be hard not to start sketching. But then you also don’t want the designers to be like, ‘Wait, what?’ We always end this podcast with one question since it’s titled What I’ve Learned, what is your or are your greatest lessons learned over your amazing career?

BC: I think there’s a couple, but the probably the most prominent lesson that I’ve learned is that you are not alone. So, no matter what comes against you or what obstacles may appear, you’re not alone on this journey. There are people you can count on, people that have been here before, find those people, and cherish them. That’s the top thing. And then the other two are tied together,  particularly in this pandemic, but I’ve always said this, just be kind in our world today, we just need to break down barriers and ensure we do everything we can to make the world a better place, and that starts with you as an individual. So, lend that helping hand, provide a genuine compliment, hell, just smile at someone. And even with a mask on, they’re still going to see your eyes smiling. So, just be kind to people because both of those things feed into the fact that we’re on this ride once so enjoy the journey. The destination is going to be great, but be sure to stop and enjoy the present and enjoy this fabulous today.

SSR: Well, I think that’s even more timely than ever. That’s your greatest lesson learned, especially with everything that we’re going through right now.

BC: Exactly.

SSR: I can’t thank you enough for being here, and taking this time out of your schedule to sit down with us. I really enjoyed our conversation.

BC: And Stacy, I greatly enjoyed chatting with you too, and I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you and to express the excitement that we have inside of Wilson today.

SSR: Well, I can’t wait to see what’s next.

BC: Me too. Me too.