Will Meyer and Gray Davis, Meyer Davis

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: I’m here today with Will Meyer and Gray Davis of Meyer Davis. Hi guys. How are you today?

Will Meyer: Wonderful. Thanks Stacy.

Gray Davis:Hi Stacy, nice to be here you.

SSR: I know. And as we were just saying, we’re doing this via Skype to everyone listening amid this COVID-19 pandemic. It is so nice to just see people’s faces. So it’s great to see you guys today. So let’s start there. How is your firm handling the crisis? And how has it affected your business so far?

WM: Well, we’re handling it carefully, and we’re treating this situation seriously. Obviously, it’s affected business to a degree, but we tried to get out in front of this, and we looked at our projects and things that were slowing down or pausing, for the moment and then had to reevaluate the staff that we need currently. It is a major disruption, globally on every front, so it’s something we’ve taken really seriously.

GD: I think the other thing that’s probably helped us dealing with this as we’re used to working remotely all over the world. Like Will was saying we were very proactive. Before they even instituted everybody working from home, et cetera, we had already started that. So, we were a little bit ahead of the curve there, and we’ve just been trying to be very proactive and keep everybody through Zoom and different types of setups, keeping everybody involved and, obviously communication is key.

SSR: Yeah. That was going to be my next question. How do you keep people motivated, especially in such a creative business that encourages collaboration and encourages people, working together, usually in an office setting to come up with these amazing designs that you all create?

WM: First of all, the whole staff has great chemistry and energy. But, as I was saying, the administrative arm, in normal times, they have great morale and do fun events in the office. And these times they’ve actually made a pivot to getting together for coffee, like Zoom coffee talks, Zoom cocktail hours, and it’s a good time for them to not only like see and hang out with their coworkers, but some talks about projects and things like that occur as well. So it’s been great for morale and also, great for socializing. They’ve been amazing actually.

SSR: That’s awesome. And what has been the biggest challenge?

GD: In the office, we’re you used to working in one big physical space and I think that interaction and accessibility really instilled this team building and activity. And Will and I, when we’re in the office we usually like to sit out in the conference rooms around those big work tables and whoever needs to review something, they’ll come in and we’ll go through it. And that dynamic there, it just created a lot of energy and if we were doing that or floating around and stopping at different one’s desk and chatting. So now we’ve had to rework things, and I guess that that physical closeness has made it a bit more difficult. And now we’re just trying through Zoom and Skype of having every few days meetings, with each team, talking about different projects that we’re working on and the status and where we are.

WM: It’s interesting that you say that too. It’s a good point because Gray and I have a little bit different styles of how we operate in the office, where Gray likes to park out in the conference room and draw. And I tend to wander, like sort of make my laps around the office, like these big figure eights and different patterns. Stop at people’s desks, do little sketches with them, talk to them, see what’s on their screens. So without that physical, capability, we’ve had to sort of pivot to different platforms.

I’ve become accustomed to using just FaceTime when I’m drawing something and wanting to connect with two or three or four people. I’ll just do that. Just like, if you’re sitting at home and you’re working for us, you better be ready for like a FaceTime popping up just randomly because I like be involved like that and it actually works really well. So that’s my new way of wandering around is just like surprise FaceTiming people.

GD: And it’s true. You never know when you’re going to get a FaceTime call.

SSR: Just have to be ready. Well, I think that’s a perfect place to pivot to the two of you, and how you started this amazing firm and why we’re here today. Let’s start at the beginning, I guess separately, can you both tell us where you grew up and was design something you’ve always had an interest in? Did you always have that design bug growing up?

GD: We both grew up in Tennessee. I’m from Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and always appreciated great design. My father loved to sketch, but he was an accountant. I would say early on, we would take these family trips, that always inspired me, go into these really interesting places. And I think started my mind thinking about appreciating the design and taking that into account. I’d say that’s probably where it started for me.

SSR: And Will?

WM: Yeah. So I’m from Nashville, Tennessee. My father was a banker and a frustrated architect. My uncle, his brother was an architect and I would always go to his office and watch what he was drawing and loved seeing the houses he used designing and really inspired me. And I always liked to draw from an early age, like very young, so I knew what I wanted to do when I grew up and I was 9 or something like that. But my dad and I, we would drive around and if there was a house under construction, we would just pull up and just walk into the house, like that was what we did.

SSR: Were there any memories of a trip or a family outing, that might have inspired your hospitality bug a little bit early without even realizing it?

GD: Sure. We were always traveling and one trip that I remember is my mother spent probably several months planning a month long trip over one summer and I was 15 at the time. And, my brother and sister and myself and mom and dad, and we just took up a trip. We drove all across the U.S. from Tennessee, went up North and all the way out to the West Coast and down and through the Southwestern part of the States. And just really opened my eyes up to a lot of different cultures, interesting people. The Tetons, I remember just being so memorable, San Francisco, the energy there, LA, just the lifestyle. One again was back in Teton village, just this quirky little, hotel right at the foot of the Tetons. I don’t know. It’s just that I really appreciated great design.

WM: I had the same sort of travel, lots of early travel experience growing up. At early age, you become accustomed to all the sort of notes and pleasures and things of hospitality that I think probably, started the beginnings of the imagination of our career that we sort of made. A memorable trip that, I took when it was me and my cousin and my father went to, Phoenix, Arizona and we stayed in the Biltmore there and visited Taliesin West. I think that was it around age 12 or so. And I think that was a really pivotal point. It was such an amazing property, the Biltmore, but also getting into, really exploring Frank Lloyd Wright and design, and that was very inspirational for me.

SSR:  You guys had much more exciting trips than I did. We went to Myrtle Beach. We went in the family truckster and drove down and stayed at roadside motels, so I’m kind of jealous. So how did you two meet? Was it at school or somewhere else?

WM: I worked for Gwathmey Siegel and Associates [in New York] and had my experience.

GD: When I first moved to New York was working for John Saladino, and then moved over to working with Thomas O’Brien and Bill Sofield at Arrow. They’re very different firms, but really interesting projects that exposed me to a lot of different types of work not only in hospitality but residential and retail.

WM: One thing that’s interesting about our early work experience, with me being at Charlie Gwathmey’s office, working on museums and amazing houses for Michael Dell and Steven Spielberg and others, and Gray working for Saladino. John Saladino and Charlie Gwathmey were actually classmates in architecture school at Yale. I always thought that was interesting because you couldn’t think of two more opposite sort of design styles as Charlie and John. But the rigor, the imagination, the genius of each of them is sort of their legacies. They were obviously both very special people in our field. Gray and I having gone to school together and having had the opportunity to work for people that were actually legends in our field that we’re in school together was just an interesting parallel.

SSR: Talk to me a little bit about working on such amazing projects at such a young age coming out of school.

GD: Well, I would say at Arrow, one of our big clients was both Ralph and Ricky Lauren and their private residence. And then also the stores, the home collection and redoing the Rhinelander Mansion, and every four months transforming it for that particular season. The first project was working on Ralph and Ricky’s apartment on Fifth Avenue. And it was a really beautiful, duplex that was originally done by [Angelo] Donghia, really way out ahead of its time, all the white lacquer, really thoughtfully done. And so when we went in and reworked that and renovated that and just spending time with both Mr. and Mrs. Lauren and their way of working and talking through design was really eye-opening.

And then from there went to work on, a lot of stuff with Giorgio Armani, a lot of retail stores for them. And then worked on Mr. Armani’s apartment in New York City. Getting into that really pare down beautiful little 1930s, John Michel Frock-inspired aesthetic. That period probably had a huge impact on where I am now.

SSR: And how different those two are, Ralph Lauren versus Armani. Was there something about how they approached a project or approached an aesthetic that has stuck with you or that you learned from them?

GD: Absolutely. It’s obviously the attention to detail, but it’s also editing too. And being a great listener and really, thinking about scale and proportion. There are so many layers. But you understand how they got to where they are. When you’re with them and listening to them talk and describe something that they’re wanting or looking is just mindblowing.

SSR: I’m sure. And you probably didn’t even realize how much you’re learning at that point.

GD: You’re right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

WM: I would add to what you were saying Stacy is, and what Gray just confirmed is a lot of things that we learned back then, working with these amazing people. I’m actually just now realizing how much it was that we learned. And when you have perspective and sort of hindsight, you can look back and really see the knowledge that you glean when you’re, early on in your career, I didn’t even know what I was doing at that age, but you were drawing and keeping up and doing drawing sets and specifying things and just working as hard as you could, but what I didn’t realize I was gleaning was all of this sort of peripheral perspective on working with great people.

When I was at Gwathmey Siegel, the key projects I worked on were pretty much split half and half between residential and commercial work. And residentially, I worked on Steven Spielberg’s apartment on Central Park West, beautiful apartment, that I worked on until it was finished. Amazing place. I worked on Michael Dell’s house in Austin, Texas, Ron Meyer’s house in Malibu. I worked on several really interesting residential projects where again, the rigor that Charlie sort of drove with material transitions and just this very thought out, intellectual sort of driven architectural rigor, that was … To work at Gwathmey Siegel, you had to have that in your DNA or it just wouldn’t work out. That’s just how Charlie liked to run the office and that’s why his projects were so beautiful, sublime, and distinctive.

And I think picking up that level of attention to detail through that time of my life working for Charlie was amazing and just watching how Charlie handled himself. And the way he dressed and the way he interacted with clients and is his casual manner that made everyone feel comfortable. That combined with this sort of academic prowess and intellectual qualities made him a unique person. And he was, a great mentor and an amazing person to learn from.

SSR: Yeah, I could only imagine. So you two met at Auburn, but you’re in different classes, you said. So how did you two reconnect and what sparked the idea to come together and form your own firm?

GD: Well, I had left arrow and was working out of my studio apartment, and I had reached out to Will and was working on a couple of small projects, and [asked him if he wanted to help me]. We really enjoyed the dialogue back and forth. And, that was probably about six months after I had left. And then I would say shortly thereafter, we talked about opening up a practice together and a couple of our professors from Auburn were always encouraging the two of us to do that. They said, ‘I just feel like the two of you get along really well, and we think you would do quite well.’ And I think that was sort of the catalyst for us, and when we were working on some of these freelance projects, we really enjoyed it. And it was a nice dialogue.

WM: In a way, I don’t think Gray and I naturally would have just thought about becoming partners at that time. But what Gray was saying is that we were … Our professors saw that in us and they were absolutely right. The second we started working together, it was just really easy. I mean, I can’t think of anything. We’ve never really argued about much of anything ever. And it’s always been about the best idea. There’s never been any ego really involved. It’s just, a sketch, or an idea of something. If it’s a great idea, it’s a great idea. And whoever comes up with it.

GD: It’s like that throughout. It’s like that today and through the office. Like Will said, whoever has the best idea, that’s the one we run with. And we like to encourage the team at the office to really push the envelope and come up with ideas and solutions and thought on ways to solve and design decisions.

SSR: I think that’s easier said than done. I think that’s really great because that breeds a culture of innovation, of people wanting to lean in and be part of these projects and not just hear from the top down.

WM: I think people really enjoy it. I think there’s a certain freedom that we provide, but there’s also a sense of style that is evident in our work that I think, I appreciate when people work for us. They understand that and they start to learn and know what it is we would appreciate and how would we do it? How would this problem be solved? How would the materials go together? What chair would look nice in this room? And it’s constant and constant evolution. But I do think there’s that buy-in with our team that they want to be a part of what we’re doing.  I can’t think of an office that has such like, energetic, positive, group of people that are all after the same goals.

SSR: When we gave you guys the Platinum Circle Award, our Lifetime Achievement Award two years ago, just the fact that you had most of your office there and just how excited they were for you guys, it just spoke so loudly to the culture and the team that you guys have created.

WM: Well, that honor of being inducted into the Platinum Circle, Gray and I are eternally thankful for that honor. But I think the reason why you saw the office there and such enthusiastic support is because they know it’s not just really about Gray and I, it’s really about the work that we all do together and they own that award as much as we do it. I think if we ran our office in more of a top down management style, it wouldn’t really be their award too. It’s the work of all of us and I don’t care, who you are as a designer, you’re only as strong as your creative support behind you. So Gray and I openly recognize that and we give credit for it. And I think that inspires our staff.

SSR: And tell us about the early days of starting out. I remember trying to track down the guys that did the restaurant for the Greenwich Hotel, which were you guys and I couldn’t get to you. And I really wanted to, and I remember being a young editor being like, ‘Why can’t I figure out how to get to them?’ Well, first let’s start, how was it? Did you have a lot of projects? Was it just seamless from the freelance projects you had to getting some really incredible projects back-to-back?

GD: I would say one of our first projects was V-Bar at the Venetian hotel, that we did, that was really groundbreaking at the time. It was the first real all lounge bar and that really was trying to capture an audience from New York and LA and the design of it was very forward thinking with the way we, did the whole facade with this frosted glass, that was layered over almost like fish scales, to all of the custom furniture inside of the lack of work. When it opened, it was quite successful. And I remember our client, whenever we’d run into him, several years later, they’re like, ‘That’s our most successful, lounge that we’ve ever done and it’s still generating really crazy revenue for us.’

WM: Stacy, you’re talking about like seminal projects that are like “big breaks.” That was very important because what we did is we turned the dial on hospitality. We made a lounge culture and mixology and upscale, luxury lounge. We introduced that to Las Vegas. And then as you’ve seen since then, that entire, category of hospitality venue in Las Vegas just exploded. So fast forward to what you were talking about earlier, with Locanda Verde and the Greenwich Hotel, we introduced a very informal casual, authentic, Italian restaurant that was approachable, wasn’t fancy, was very just informal and inviting. And by that design we sort of introduced that way of designing restaurants. That was again turning the dial on the way people expected, the restaurants that they were visiting and frequenting to be designed. We changed that culture.

GD: One the things that they talked about there is, it was the restaurant that was part of the hotel, but we also wanted to create a great neighborhood restaurant in Tribeca. We really wanted to open up the interior to the neighborhood and really create this place that for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you could go there and it has become, one of the things that we really try to do whenever we’re working on a restaurant is, it wants to be able to stand on its own and become a true destination. And we laugh because we still get calls today, clients or friends will call and say, ‘Look, I was trying to make a reservation Locanda and I can’t get in, is there any way that you could reach out and see if you could get me a table?’ So we become a bit like a concierge service to some of these clients and projects that we work on.

WM: But it’s interesting to continue on the seminal, sort of groundbreaking projects that were important for us and our progression, I would say the 1 Hotel. When we disordered designing that, sustainability was something that was part of the hospitality and hotel culture as just a note that you would get checking in a room, it would say, ‘please check this box if you don’t want us to change your sheets today’ or whatever. But we actually took that notion and through the brainchild and vision of Barry Sternlicht, we actually turn sustainability into a brand. We made the brand hang its hat on sustainability, all about sustainability, and reusing materials, sourcing locally. And just everything to do with the brand had to do with all of the design decisions. So I think for us, we’ve been blessed with having great projects, but we’ve also, had the vision to change and move the dial in our industry to show people a way forward with different ways of doing things. And I think that’s just been through a lot of hard work, a lot of great clients, and a lot of good support from our office creatives that we work with.

SSR: And especially for the one hotel, I mean you started with a building that was probably far from sustainable, so that was a challenge in its own right. And this is the building we’re talking about in South Beach. What was it like working with Barry and working through help creating a brand at its infancy?

WM: Barry had this vision and we were lucky to work with Kemper Hyers, as well as their creative in house. And it was again, one of these work situations where we were all really just a bunch of really creative, interesting people getting together in a room and imagining something out of nothing. I think Barry brought a piece of driftwood and piece of crawl stone and a piece of old rope or something and said, ‘let’s make a project out of this.’ You know Kemper very well, Stacy, he’s got so much energy, amazing tastes, amazing vision and incredible drive to make a project all it can be.

And Barry again has that same incredible business acumen, but also that visual drive to make a project all it can be. And we all had such a fun time working on that. It was very heavy lifting. But I’ve noticed over the years, Gray and I both noticed that the projects that are the hardest, they become the projects that we’re the most proud of because all that hard work shows, and you might not be able to see it at the time, but when it’s open and the public responds in such a positive way, it’s very rewarding and it’s shows you that that extra effort goes such a long way.

SSR: Also more recently I think what you guys have done that’s pretty interesting is 1) worked with Four Seasons to help redefine what luxury is for a very venerable brand and 2) rethought hotel, coworking, and wellness with another brand in New York. I don’t know if you want to touch on either one of those?

GD: I will say with four seasons, it’s been terrific working with them and I think they realize that they’ve always stood out in the hospitality business, but they realize that they wanted to raise the bar on design, and we helped them come up with their urban suite as a standard moving forward. And then, I would say, we just finished the last year or so, a really beautiful project for them in Greece on the Astir Peninsula. And it’s two buildings just outside of the Athens. It’s always been this really beautiful resort. That’s had a lot of celebrities that have stayed there over time.

And so we, we completely gutted these two buildings and completely re-imagined them. And they each have, whether it’s Nafsika or the Arion, each have their own styles and identity. And again, it’s using this new of thinking and approaching design. And we were just there last summer, right after it opened and stayed there for a few days. And it was nice to see people there enjoying things the way you had envisioned it, but then also to see things that was being used completely different than what you had expected. It’s one of those really exciting properties to spend time, but also just sort of seeing what the possibilities are design-wise. I remember running into some friends there one day and they said, ‘We would’ve never imagined that this was a Four Season, but it’s really beautiful the way it’s been executed and designed.’ I will say that they’ve really focused on beautiful design, moving forward and working with really talented architects and interior designers and really are doing some nice things.

WM: To rewind, to look back at our involvement with Four Seasons. We got a phone call randomly from Dana Kalczak. She said, ‘I work with Four Seasons. I would like get to know of you and Gray could come to Toronto next week and visit with us and talk about designing some of our hotels.’ And we said, ‘Yes, we would like to come visit.’ And we met with her. It’s the first time we had met her. She outlined the new vision for Four Seasons and there’s never been a question of the quality of their service and beautiful locations and, as you said, their venerable reputation. But she wanted to breathe new life and new energy into their properties through design.

And we were blessed with being charged with that duty to sort of bring into, the ones that we’ve worked on. And I think we’ve worked on nine of them now, to really recreate energetic, beautiful amazing locations for Four Seasons. So we not only deliver what their clientele and customers, existing customers expect, but we also reintroduce design for new customers for them. And I think by being relevant and again, turning the dial on the design, it’s made an entire new energy that Dana and the company has really appreciated. And again, it’s been a lot of fun. They’ve been great partners.

SSR: You talked a little bit before about your style and I mean, obviously you guys adapt for each project, but I do feel like there is a very residential tone to a lot of what you do. And correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what was interesting in talking with Dana and talking to you all, when we’ve covered the trans formation of four seasons is just that really thoughtfulness, especially in the guestroom, which I feel like is almost forgotten some days these days because it’s been all about the public space.

I’m curious if your residential work does inform your hospitality work and vice versa and how, you guys balance that. And if that was a factor in designing Four Seasons, especially the guestroom which was focused on biophilia and form meets function and just really looking at all the essentials that a guestroom entails.

WM: The way that residential and hospitality worlds come together because we do both in our firm. Some firms do either or. But we really do both. And we have found that they inform each other in such interesting ways. Our residential clients come to us because they’ve seen one of our hotel projects and our hotel clients come to us and they say, ‘We saw this amazing photo of your residential project.’ So they understand that attention to detail, attention to comfort style and just sensibility that’s required residential, it’s applicable and essentially to hospitality design and guestroom design. I think if you don’t feel like you’re at home, you don’t feel comfortable in a guestroom. And that’s one of the things we look at every day is: Does this feel like a home? Is there a place to sit down? Where do I put my book? Where do I rest my drink? Is there a light near my chair that I can read by? Is the bar located in a sensible location?

Things that seem like common sense but, unless they’re really thought about meticulously they can fall off and not work well together. So we put an incredible amount of energy into making things look very simple. It sounds counterintuitive, I would say, but it’s actually the simpler and more logical and ease that the room feels, is actually the product of a lot of hard work.

SSR: And one other project that I wanted to touch on was the Assemblage, which is what I hinted to, which is a new brand that has multiple locations in New York, a mix of coworking and hotel rooms for one at least one of the location. But what’s interesting about it is there is undertones and a focus on wellness, which I think is very apropos to what’s happening in today’s world with where wellness is such a major consideration and not a trend, but really a force that’s $4.3 trillion industry that everyone’s starting to take notice of. I’m curious your thoughts of that project and how you approached it and how you think it relates to what’s happening overall in the industry and in the wellness space?

GD: Well, I would say Assemblage just really ahead of its time and precursor. It was almost like a summary and precursor at the same time because they recognized the popularity and need of cowork environment. But they also layered in this sense of wellness and purpose within a work environment. And then they took it a step further by weaving in biophilia meditation, yoga, things that are all about wellness. And taking it that one step further that I think, given the times now, those things are becoming not of sort of a marginal sort of consideration. But I would say these things are becoming primary consideration. And I think Assemblage had incredible vision to put that in the front of their purpose and their brand and their buildings to really weave all these seamlessly. There’s a sense of quiet and peace when you visit an Assemblage and purpose and serenity that’s very evident when you visit one of their properties.

SSR: So was hospitality something you guys always set out to do as a firm or was this something you fell into?

WM: Because Gray and I had worked previously in firms that were based on either commercial work or residential work, we didn’t come from a firm that was all about hospitality. So we were not in that world of designing hotels. So designing restaurants and designing homes and apartments, hotel was out of our wheelhouse. Coming as outsiders into the hotel world, one day we just said, ‘You know what? We want to be designing hotels.’ And we had to wheel ourselves into that world. Given our experience in residential and other hospitality areas, we were able to make it work, but it wasn’t easy. We went after several hotels. And finally we designed, I think our first hotel was a Nolitan hotel down in Nolita on the Delancey Street.

From there, it took off and now it’s become the sort of a key part of our business. But we wanted to do it because we love it. But we also love … when people ask me, ‘What’s your favorite part of work?’ And I always say, ‘All of it.’ Because I think if I designed only one type of thing, I would get very bored of it. But I think designing everything keeps us both really engaged.

GD: Will, I think that’s interesting. One of the things that as a team in the office, because we are working on different types of projects whether it’s a hotel or a restaurant, a private residence or something that it keeps the office lively and challenging. But you can always move them around and people are in the office saying, ‘I’d love to work on a private residence or I’d love to work on resort.’ And I think, given what’s going on in our world it helps how you maneuver and roll with things that happened. I don’t think any of us anticipated how this particular issue that’s happening now would affect so many people. But I think being agile and being able to focus on many different types of work has always been really entertaining and interesting to both of us.

SSR: What’s your advice to firms starting out? If you were looking back and doing this all over again, is it just trying to get your name out there as best as you can?

WM: I guess, advice to people wanting to break into the field is to put your energy into everything you do. And we found that just by working really hard and trying to, to secure great relationships with great clients and great people and always doing great work. If you try harder, you might not succeed the first time, but if you keep on working and making the very most of what any project can possibly be then that leads to more projects and more success. And also, you’re not just doing it for the client in a way, you’re actually benefiting yourself in a way because you’re learning and growing. And it’s not not either or, it’s sort of both, and. You’re delivering great products for your client and you’re allowing yourself to grow. So I think that’s the advice I would give.

GD: Will, you’ve also had a lot of experience in frequenting a lot of those places too. So you’ve got firsthand knowledge.

WM: I put so many years and energy of my life into research and development into nightlife. And Gray, hit it on the head. You also gravitate towards things you like. And I think Gray and I liked hospitality projects and that sort of world of hotels and and lounges and restaurants and we like to bring that to life. In a way we design for ourselves in that regard.

SSR: I always say hospitality is the best industry to be in to design because you are creating that experience, that you get to see people enjoy day in and day out, which is pretty special.

WM: It’s truly experiential design. That’s what we do. When I try to explain what we do to people that don’t really know our niche of our industry. I just say, ‘You know what we do? We create environments, we create experiences.’ That’s really what we bring to the table is the ability to have a vision, like a narrative inquiry, an experience, and an environment.

SSR: So we always end this podcast with one question, considering that it’s called What I’ve Learned. What has been your greatest lesson learned along the way?

GD: I think it’s taking people’s thoughts and ideas and how do you transform and put that paper, onto the computer and create something that really, is a reflection of who they are or what this particular project wants to be.

SSR: Will?

WM: Learn to be humble. Like Gray said, listen, realize that we’re asked to provide a vision and to execute that vision. And with gratitude, we deliver that to our clients. And being humble enough to realize that, they could ask anyone to do this, but they’ve trusted us. And that’s humbling to think that we’re the ones that they entrust a lot of money and a lot of trust in their brand and their property. And that’s humbling along with a lot of gratitude.

SSR: Well, I think that’s a perfect way to end. Thank you guys so much for being with me today. Really, really appreciate it.

GD: Thank you, Stacy.

WM: Stacy, thank you so much. It’s been a great talk and whenever we talk to you, I feel like we also learn a little bit of something about ourselves. How much do we owe you for our therapy session?