Little Wing Lee

SSR: Hi. I’m here with Little Wing Lee. Thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?

LWL: I’m doing well, glad to be here. Thanks.

SSR: Yes, I’m glad to. Okay, so we always start at the beginning. Where did you grow up?

LWL: That’s a good question. It’s a little longer story, but I was born in Boston and then when I was four years old, my sister and my mother and I, we moved to Hawaii, which was incredible. So we lived there for about seven years and in my heart, I feel like I’m from Hawaii. And then I guess at the age of 10, we moved to Montclair, New Jersey. So kind of finished junior high and high school in New Jersey. So I guess that’s also where I grew up, but I went to undergrad in Ohio and then after graduation moved to Brooklyn. And so I’ve been in Brooklyn for a very long time. So I consider myself a true Brooklynite.

SSR:Yeah. A little bit of everything. I love it. So, as a kid, did you always have a love of design? Were you creative? Was there any kind of hint that this would be part of your career down the line?

LWL: I would say I was always interested in art and definitely crafts projects. I was always making things, I think, whether it was like food. I was into cooking as a kid, drawing, painting. I also spent a lot of time, I realized looking back kind of designing my bedroom. Like my mom was very open to my sister and I having input into what our home looked like. And so we could decorate our rooms the way we wanted, and so I always remember looking through 17 Magazine and trying different craft projects, like making my own pillows or like little stools for my room. I would choose the paint colors of my room and probably change that every few years. And so I think maybe that was kind of the beginning, kind of these little interior design projects. And then in third grade I won my first art awards, so that was maybe the beginning of a career in art and design.

SSR: What did you win it for?

LWL: There was a campaign in Hawaii that was talking about the importance of sight and vision and it was called Sight is Beautiful. And so they asked kids to kind of draw what is something that you would miss if you had lost your sight. And growing up in Hawaii, I could see a mountain range from my bedroom. So, that’s what I woke up to, is this beautiful mountain range. And so I drew a sunrise coming over the mountains. And I won. And I bought myself a pair of roller skates. So I was pretty excited.

SSR: No, I love it. I remember when roller skating was such a big thing.

LWL: I know. I was like… They were sneaker roller skates, and I was like, this is the coolest thing ever.

SSR: I’ve made it. So you moved back to New Jersey. Did you go to school for design or art? Did you continue that love of it or no?

LWL: I would say, all through high school again, I was of course, really into fashion, decorating my room, again. Growing up in Montclair, it’s very close to New York City and my mother was an artist and a modern dancer. And so I feel like her circle of friends were always creative people. And so she would take my sister and I to SoHo, to art galleries, to dance performances. We’re always visiting museums. And I think that she was always pointing out beauty to us, whether it was in people, in objects, in spaces. And so I feel like she kind of honed our critical eyes to kind of appreciate something that was beautiful or to note it’s something we’re off. So I feel like all through my life living with my mom, my sister, it was like something that we were very kind of aware of.

SSR: What type of art did she do?

LWL: She did a lot of performance art in the seventies. She and my father were part of the Black Arts Movement in Boston. And she was a modern dancer. She also modeled for so it was really the clothes and has amazing style. So it was fun to have a mom who be fun to go shopping with or had a great sense of color and pattern. So she was always like the cool mom. Yeah.

SSR: That’s super cool.

LWL: Giving good advice and taking us to interesting places.

SSR: How are they involved in the Black Arts Movement?

LWL: They lived in Boston, so this was in the seventies. So again, their network of friends who are painters and photographers, they both were photographers. And like I said, performance artists and dancers. She told me that I was in a performance art piece, probably when I was one years old, there was someone like playing a piano on an ice skating rink and I was crawling around and she was dancing.

SSR: There’s probably not a video.

LWL: I know, I was like, maybe there’s a film somewhere, or at least some photographs. I have the full collection of my parents photographs. I should try to find up some.

SSR: You should. That would be amazing. So if you didn’t go to school for art, what did you go to school for?

LWL: So when I went to undergrad, I went to Oberlin College in Ohio and I’d always been interested in personal histories of people growing up. My grandparents often talked about their journey of the great migration from the south to the north. And so there was always a lot of talk about people’s stories. So it always was so fascinating to me as a kid, my grandmother had a huge house in Connecticut and we just spent a lot of time in the attic going through her boxes of treasures or random things, because in the summer you don’t have anything to do.

LWL: And so she’d be like, “Just go up into the attic.” So my sister and I would be like, oh, this is so boring, but you never knew what you would find in the attic. And so I was always curious about people’s stories. So I studied African American studies and also religion at Oberlin. And I was a film studies minor. So I always loved film, filmmaking, watch a lot of documentaries. And so I thought maybe I would go into film, whether it was kind of narrative or documentary filmmaking. I wasn’t sure at that point, so I double majored to give myself lots of options at the time.

SSR: Is there anything you found in your grandmother’s attic that you remember as being an awesome find?

LWL: That’s a good question. I just feel like, I just remember, again, my grandmother, this huge pink house in Connecticut. And so all the rooms were always connected. I feel like there were multiple doors in every room. And so I just felt like it was always a journey to go up into the attic. I’m trying to think, nothing in particular that I can remember, but I just remember, again, her sense of style interiors, she was much more of a maximalist than I, she loved red and flowers. So her dining room was like red wall paper with huge flowers. And it was like pattern on pattern on pattern. But there were always little treasures to be discovered. So it was fun.

SSR: So did you, after school, did you end up going into TV and documentary?

LWL: Yeah, I did. So after I graduated from Oberlin, I moved to Brooklyn and I kind of started on a path to documentary filmmaking, working on kind of smaller scale productions that would do kind of the festival circuit. But I really enjoyed really digging into the topic of the film, whether it was Women’s Reproductive Health Rights or the History of Black People in Russia. So it was just a huge range of projects. And then I worked for Bill Moyers at PBS, which was an incredible experience working on this series on Death and Dying. And then also working with Bill on [Sirius 00:08:47] On The Environment, The Hudson River, Chinese Americans. So it was a really great experience to work with such talented, smart people on really important projects.

SSR: What were you doing? Were you doing the research?

LWL: I was doing research, a lot of research. I mean, of course when you start in production, you’re a production assistant. So you do everything from like, photocopying the scripts, running tape, doing all these things, transcripts and then did a lot of research, which was fun. A lot of archival research. So getting to go to Library of Congress or looking for archival photos or film for projects, and then kind of moving more, I guess, into production management side, which I also found really interesting. So I guess a range of jobs.

SSR: That’s amazing. So how did you pivot into, or why did you leave that to get into design? What, you know?

LWL: What happened.

SSR: What happened?

LWL: And everyone’s like, how did that happen? So, like I said, I was working for Bill Moyers on a series on Death and Dying, which was incredible. Of course, it’s makes you kind of think about your own life.

SSR:Yeah, I’m sure. Not the lightest of time.

LWL: But it was an amazing, an amazing project. And so we were between productions and so we had the summer off. And so my mother had always been telling me to do this program at Harvard at the GSD, Career Discovery Program and it’s kind of a summer intensive introduction to what grad school for design would be. And I was like, why is she telling me to do this? Like, I’m not an architect and I’m not interested in design, but she kept bringing it up. She was like, “Look, there’s this Career Discovery Program at Harvard.” And I was like, okay.

SSR: I think moms just have that.

LWL: Yeah, I know. She knows me. Yep. So we were between productions and I was like, what am I going to do this summer, so rare to have this time off for yourself? So I decided to listen to my mom, I signed up to attend the career discovery program at Harvard with the GSD. And I think that was the moment that really changed my life from becoming… From working in film to becoming a designer. So it’s an intensive program where you’re working in the studio with recent Harvard graduates. I was working in the landscape architecture program. And so you have amazing architects come to present to the students. So you’re seeing incredible works. We’re going on field trips throughout Boston, Massachusetts. And so it was just kind of this intensive kind of education and design.

SSR: So did it help you fall in love with design? I mean, what facet really drew you to it?

LWL: I had always been passionate about gardening and so I really saw landscape architecture as kind of the mix of architecture, obviously, and the kind of natural environment. So that’s what kind of drew me to that. And also this idea of crafting spaces for people to use. I think that… I think you and I are aware of how important design is to your daily life, but just this idea that you’re creating these spaces that can have so much meaning for people or that can kind of direct people and how they might feel or how they might use this space. So I was really excited about that possibility. It wasn’t an immediate switch from filmmaking to design. I went back into filmmaking. I took classes at Parsons and then started visiting different design schools in New York to kind of find a program that I thought was right for me.

LWL: And I think through that exploration, I found interior design. I feel that the scale, more human scale, was something that really spoke to me. And the fact that interior design, you can design a piece of hardware. You could design a blanket, you could design a light, you’re designing a space, you’re choosing color. It just had a huge kind of range, which was really interesting to me. So after doing a lot of research and taking classes, I ended up enrolling at Pratt with the Graduate Program for Interior Design. So it was a three year program, which was really exciting and a lot of hard work to kind of learn this whole new language of design. And then that was kind of, I guess, the starting point for my new career.

SSR:I mean, with such a background, religion and African American studies, like now with Pratt, with the landscape architecture, I mean, how has that, looking back, influenced your design ethos moving forward?

LWL: I think it’s given me a more holistic approach to design. I think I’m thinking about the visitors to the space and kind of who that person might be or could be. I’m thinking about the exterior of the building, I’m thinking about the landscape. I feel like it’s given me the tools to think that the large scale and the small scale of design. And I appreciate all scales and I understand the importance of coming, your approach to the building is important. Like the door handle into the building is important. What is the light? What are you sitting on? So I understand that all of these elements come together to create this one experience of interiors.

LWL: I often say that filmmaking and design, to me in a lot of ways, seem very similar. You have all of these different parts that need to come together and work together to create whether it’s a film or a space. And oftentimes you’re working with various kind of experts and consultants to make that happen. You’re working with a sound engineer, you’re working with a camera person. You’re working with an HVAC consultant. You’re working with a code consultant and all these people are important in making your final kind of product.

SSR: So you graduate from Pratt. What is your first job out of Pratt? And after having all these different experiences, what were you looking for? Did you want to go into architecture? Did you want to do more interior design? What were you hoping to do?

LWL: When I graduated from Pratt, I was really excited to continue to work in interior design. It’s hard, I think, when you’re in school or maybe for me, maybe it’s not hard for everybody, but I wasn’t sure what exactly I wanted to do. I think when you’re in grad school, you’re lucky enough to work on all different types of projects. Like you’re working on a library, you’re working on a hospital, you’re working on a hotel, you’re working on a residence. So it’s kind of giving you an introduction to all of these different typologies. So I wasn’t exactly sure what type of design I wanted to do because I enjoyed all of the projects that we were working on. So my very, very first job after graduating from Pratt was working for a former professor who was an architect. And so working on kind of more smaller scale residential projects in New York city.

LWL: So it was really great to do that. And then kind of my first job after that was working for [SOM 00:17:03]. So that was within the interiors departments of SOM. And then within the interiors, I was part of what they called at the time, The Innovation Team. So it was myself as an interior designer, a graphics designer, an interactive designer. And then the head of our studio was coming kind of from branding and marketing. So that was an incredible experience just to be able to work with designers and different disciplines. I really enjoyed, because we all kind of have a different approach to a project. And then I think we’re coming up with stronger solutions and stronger designs.

SSR: Right. And you got to work on some pretty impressive projects, right?

LWL: At SOM or just in general?

SSR: At SOM, well, that too, but we’ll get through that. But SOM?

LWL: We worked on… I’m trying to think what did we work on? We worked on a lot of product development. Projects were fun. A lot of materials research. We worked on some branding for Jet Airways, which was an Indian airline. I think I worked on a project for Goldman Sachs. I’m trying to remember, to design kind of a new desk system, in their new office, which was fun. So I think working on or in that group allowed us to work on a variety of different projects. So it was good. It was fun.

SSR: At SOM though, working for such a large company or firm that’s really respected. You must have learned some good takeaways from that experience.

LWL: Yeah. I had never worked at such a large firm in my documentary life or any life, really. I think going to SOM, it’s like a second graduate degree in a way. There’s so many departments and there’s so many smart, interesting people, their access to the library, materials library was incredible. There’s just a lot of knowledge that you’re able to learn from. And learn with. And so I would say the people at SOM were really incredible. Again, it’s an international company, so there’s a lot of people in the office from all over the world. And as I said, there’s so many different disciplines. So they’re graphic designers, they’re generative pattern makers, which was incredible. And again, because it is such a large firm, this access to new technology, we again had a lot of architects presenting to the office. So there’s just a lot of information coming in to the office, which was really exciting.

SSR: So what did you do after SOM?

LWL: So after SOM I became part of the Exhibition Design Team for the National Museum of African American History and Culture, in Washington, DC. The firm was Ralph Appelbaum Associates. And so when I first started about the project, I thought, oh my gosh, this is kind of the perfect blend of everything that I’ve studied, being an African American studies major and undergrad, and then having my master’s in interior design, I just thought like, my gosh, this project was made for me. So super excited. And I had never done exhibition design, but I really love the idea of integrating content with design.

SSR:Yeah. What was that process like?

LWL: It was a lot of research, which feels very luxurious, but I think it’s important, especially for exhibition design. Our concept phase was extremely long and we spent a lot of time really understanding the curators kind of script and the story that they wanted to tell in each of their galleries. We spent a lot of time as a team, just looking at a lot of previous case studies, other African American museums through time and trying to think of like how this museum would feel different and special. So it was really important I think, to take that time, to do a lot of research and to kind of look back so that we could create this new museum for the future.

SSR: Yeah. And Was it interesting to go through all that research and then see it come to life? Like something as monumental as that, as research based as that, I mean, that process, to see it come to life must have been really…

LWL: Yeah. It was really incredible because each curator had their own way of telling the story for their gallery. And so, as you’re reading the script to try to understand what the curator is trying to convey to the visitor and then translating all of that information into the built environment. So as the exhibition designer, you’re designing the interior architecture, you’re how people are moving through the space. And then you’re also designing the actual casework. So how each object is displayed, you’re working closely with the graphic design team about how photographs of people should be displayed, how we’re going to kind of convey information. So there are many layers to designing the space and I think Smithsonian wanted this museum to look and feel different than other Smithsonians. And so the team was made up of people who had worked in the exhibition design world and then designers who hadn’t.

LWL: So we’re kind of bringing a new approach to design. So I think, also the selection of materials was extremely important. We wanted the museum to be beautiful, to tell this important story, because we knew that most people, most people I would say have some knowledge of American history, but most people have very minimal knowledge of African American history. And so to think about the different types of visitors, the visitor who might be there for 15 minutes, the visitor who’s there for an hour, someone who’s there for five hours. So to be sure that they’re getting something important, no matter how short or long their visit to the museum would be.

SSR: And them coming back too, right?

LWL: Yeah, exactly. The visitor who’s going to come every year. So it was important to kind of, thinking about material selections, thinking about materials that felt very American or materials that you could kind of change through time. I worked primarily in the history galleries. So you’re starting, we would say a pre-contact Africa. And so like what is a material that could translate from the 1500s to Obama’s Inauguration? And so it’s kind of the same pallet that’s slowly changing over time. So it was kind of an interesting exercise.

SSR: And did you work closely with David too?

LWL: We did work closely with their team as we started working on the project and receiving all the information from the Smithsonian. We quickly realized that the square footage that we were given to tell the story was not enough. It wasn’t enough space. So our team came up with a proposal to kind of dig down into the ground to give more gallery space to history. And so I think everyone is a little apprehensive about giving this proposal to the architecture team. So we’re trying to make an intervention, but their team was extremely open to that idea and made those changes and made it happen. And I think it’s a really special, important space that we were able to create in that collaboration between exhibition designers and architects.

SSR: Very cool. And so did you continue freelancing, because you went and worked with ACE for a bit as well, right?

LWL: Yes. Yes. So after my time with the Smithsonian, I started working for ACE Hotel Group, which was really great.

SSR: What drew you to ACE?

LWL: I think what drew me to ACE was their, I guess non-traditional approach to hospitality. This idea of creating spaces that feel… I’m trying to think what’s the correct word. I know we talk about this internally, but it’s almost like you’re creating a space, if you think about your cool friend’s apartment in Berlin, you’re going to stay there. I think what drew me to ACE was that each property kind of has its own distinct aesthetic and vibe. And so this idea of a brand that still holds onto its brand standards, but each property has its own personality, was exciting to me. And I think their approach to using kind of nontraditional hospitality materials was also interesting to me.

I think ACE attracts people, they want to hire people who have kind of a different point of view, whether it’s interior design, food and beverage, graphics, branding, so that everything is kind of fresh. And you’re kind of taking a new approach to whether it’s restaurant design, bars or guest rooms. So I think they’re always looking for people who have a diversity in their background. So it’s a less linear approach to the job because you’re bringing those stories with you to work, which is important.

SSR: Which project was a highlight for you, while you were there?

LWL: While working at ACE, I worked on Sister City, which is a new brand from ACE hotel and I’m also working on ACE Toronto, which is scheduled to open later this summer. So I think I have a favorite. They’re both, they’re very different. But it’s exciting to be at the stage of ACE, Toronto, where we’re kind of putting in the final touches and because of COVID obviously we had a pause and so to be back in swing with the architects, it was exciting to be so close to revealing it to the world soon.

SSR: Yeah. And Sister City was super cool because it was like the next iteration of, or the evolution of aids, where it was kind of its younger siblings and takes all the good parts, but kind of in a more [inaudible] direction. So it must have been cool to like rethink a brand. And that means for such a game changing brand.

LWL: Yeah, I think ACE is an extremely iconic brand. And so for Sister City, it was this new approach to hospitality. So it was really exciting to be a part of the team that was kind of rethinking and developing this new brand. As you said, Sister City is kind of a distillation, I guess, of service and of aesthetics. And I think, obviously design is extremely important and we want the visitor to feel comfortable, but we also want to create spaces which are dynamic and exciting. And so I think everyone at ACE was super excited to be working on this new project. It’s such a great neighborhood.

SSR: in New York?

LWL: Yeah. Yeah.

SSR: Very cool. So what led you to start your own firm in 2019?

LWL: Why did you do that?

SSR: Right before the pandemic, perfect timing.

LWL: I know, right. Who knew, that that would happen. I think after working for however many years, 15 years, I guess, has it been that long? As an interior designer on such a variety of projects, I just felt like, oh, this is a good opportunity for me to kind of strike out on my own and have a bit more control over the projects that I work on. Also, as you’re working, you have a lot of ideas or projects that you want to work on that you might not have the time to do. So I’m excited to spend time working on product development projects and to work with the architects and designers that I really admire and have fun working with. So, that was kind of the decision to start student projects.

SSR: Was it nerve wracking? For those like, trying to start their own firms, I mean, did you have a plan or just like, it was a good time? Like I always love hearing like, oh, I just decided and I just started. So, did you have kind of a thought in mind of what it was going to be or just you were ready and you decided to take that step?

LWL: When I started Studio & Projects, I definitely had a plan to take my time. It wasn’t today or I wasn’t thinking like, tomorrow I’m starting my firm. It was like, okay, I have this idea. I want to start my own practice. And then started to think like, well, what could it be? Obviously, what is the name? But really to kind of set everything up. And maybe it is interesting, but to set up all the financials, set up the bank account. Like to get everything else in place, set up the website.

So being very careful in starting the business, I really wanted to be sure administratively I was organized because once you start on a project, it happens so fast that you don’t have time to really think or just set up systems. So I was very careful when I started Studio Projects. And so our first project was working on Bar Bête in Brooklyn, which was a really beautiful fun project to work on. It’s a restaurant in Cobble Hill. So that was a first project for the firm. And I was still working for Atelier ACE while doing that. So it was a good transition into kind of running my own business.

SSR: And do you want to stay in the hospitality realm? I know you’ve done museums, you tried landscape architecture, or really studied it, but is hospitality kind of where you want to fall?

LWL: I really enjoy hospitality. Again, I love working on all different types of projects. Currently for Studio Projects, we’re just finishing up another residential project, but working on the more public spaces and also working on interior design for National Black Theater. So it’s still in the commercial realm. Some of it is hospitality. Some is residential, others more theatrical. So I think for the practice, we’re working on residential and commercial projects and I always love working on hospitality.

So I’m looking forward to working on a hotel project. So there’s something in the pipeline. So we’ll see, fingers crossed, it will come through. Yes. Yes. Because I think for hospitality it’s… I always think of the guest rooms as a more kind of residential approach to designs, creating kind of personal space for the visitor. And then thinking about the public spaces, restaurant and the bar as kind of spaces for people who might not be staying in the hotel, but just kind of these two different approaches to design’s important.

National Black Theater partnered with [Ray 00:36:05] development to redevelop the site. National Black Theater has been in that location since 1968 which is pretty incredible. And so they’ve partnered with Ray to redevelop the building, Frida Escobedo is the design architect. And so the new space will encompass a new home for NBT. There’ll be an event space. There’s retail on the ground floor. There’s a restaurant, there’s a bar. And then there’s a residential tower in the building. So student project worked on the public spaces for the residential component. So the lobby, the mail room, and then we collaborated with Frida Escobedo on all of the interior amenities spaces, which was really great. And then working with NBT on their more public facing spaces for the new theater.

SSR: Amazing. And yeah, how are you meshing the old and the new in such an iconic building?

LWL: The building will be completely new. So it’s a new construction and so working closely with Frida and her aesthetic and then working with National Black Theater to be sure that their kind of historic and important approach to theater making and their own aesthetic is very strong in their spaces.

SSR: Great.

LWL: Yeah.

SSR: And you also launched Black Folks In Design too, right? A couple years ago?

LWL: I did. After working on the National Museum of African American History and Culture, I had a great experience of working with so many talented and creative black designers on that project. And I thought, when is this going to happen again? So I had hoped that there was a group for black designers of all disciplines to come together and share resources and ideas. And so a friend was like, well, why don’t you just start it? So I took her advice and in 2017 I started Black Folks In Design. So it’s a network to introduce black designers within and across disciplines to kind of start to develop our own portfolio building projects, which has been on hold because of COVID and to just expose the world to the talent and excellence of black designers. So this week on May 13th, we’re opening our first exhibit during New York design week. And so I’m excited to showcase a few amazing black designers.

SSR: How did you pick them? How did you curate it? Is it like a panel or is it just people that were interested?

LWL: I curated the show. And so, because it’s New York design week, I was trying to think of objects or items that were kind of related to interior design. And I also wanted to show a variety of aesthetics and approaches and also a variety of materials. So, that was kind of my thought in curating the show. So we have furniture, we have ceramics, there’s a rug, paintings. So I just wanted to show the variety of aesthetics and a variety of materials and scales.

SSR: And what’s your hope with Black Folks In Design? I know some of it was put on hold because of the pandemic, but like moving forward, is it exhibitions? Is it projects? Is it a mixture? What would be your, you know?

LWL: My vision?

SSR: Yeah. Your grand plan.

LWL: I would say my vision for Black Folks In Design, I guess there’s many parts to my vision, but to start to work on our own kind of self-generated projects, that we’re able to have designers from variety of disciplines working together on exhibits, on a restaurant, but then we’re also able to showcase the variety of talent of black designers. I think that’s extremely important. And I also think having more regular meetups where again, you’re making connections within your discipline, but you’re also making connections across your discipline. I think it’s important that architects know interior designers or that graphic designers meet UX designers. As I say, everyone always needs a graphic designer in their life. And I think, as you know, projects always come across your radar. And so to have a network that you can kind of reach out, share that information or reach out to ask questions, I think is extremely important.

SSR: Yeah. For sure. So moving forward, what else do you have in the pipeline for your firm? What’s next for you? I mean, besides this amazing exhibit, also thank you for taking the minutes talk to me.

LWL: Sure. Of course. We’re very busy. Like I said, we’re opening the exhibit tomorrow. We’re finalizing a residential project here in Brooklyn and then we’re working on several product development projects, which are exciting. We’ll be exhibiting part of a recollection that we’re doing tomorrow. So it’s good to see. And then we have a lot of projects in the pipeline, so I will keep you posted on those, but some exciting projects here in New York city.

SSR:What do you see now today as like your… Like what keeps you up at night? What’s your biggest challenge with a smaller firm? In today’s world, what keeps you up at night? And on the back end, what do you think are some of the opportunities?

LWL: That’s a good question. I think when you’re running your own kind of small business, you have to do everything you’re working on. Designing the project, you’re having meetings with your CFO, but you’re also in charge of new business. So I think trying to be sure that you’re giving enough time to all of these kind of departments within your company, I think is the most challenging. Because as you’re in the middle of a project, you kind of feel like, oh, I don’t have time to meet with your architect friend or a friend of a friend, just to connect. But you realize that those connections are what lead to new projects. So to be sure that you’re always, I guess, giving attention to all the small departments within your company. So that’s, I think the biggest challenge, is to keep all the different hats on all the time.

SSR: Yeah. Because there’s a lot of them right?

LWL: Yeah. It’s like social media, marketing, PR. So it’s important also to reach out to people who are experts in those departments and ask for their support or hire them for their expertise because I’m not a social media expert, I’m a PR expert. So it’s important to have those people around to support you.

SSR: Do you see yourself getting bigger or do you like being small and nimble? I know that’s always like a fine line for firms. Like bigger you get, the more projects you have to take on, but then the more, you know.

LWL: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. People often ask me, “How big do you want to get?” And so I don’t have a number in mind. For me, it’s more important that the projects are interesting and the people that I’m working with are also interesting, good people. We’re lucky enough to work in design. And I see that as kind of a luxury, that I’m able to have a job that I’m passionate about, that I think I’m good at. And so to be sure that the projects that I’m working on kind of are interesting to me and the collaborators that I’m working with are talented, cool people.

SSR: Yeah, exactly. Is there one project that you’d really love to do? That’s kind of on your bucket list?

LWL: Oh, that’s tough. That’s tough. Well, of course I would love to do a project in Hawaii. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for good design in Hawaii, which hasn’t quite gotten there yet. So I would love to do a project in Hawaii. I also would love to do a project in Japan. I have a lot of connections to Japan. My sister lives in Tokyo and I think to work on a project there would be really exciting. I think also this idea of working on multi-generational housing project has been something that’s always been of interest to me. Having visited my grandmother in a nursing home or having a child who’s in daycare.

LWL: I always thought like these two could come together to one place, or to make sure that these spaces for senior citizens are culturally relevant is something that’s interesting to me. So those are kind of two projects that immediately, or a few projects that come to mind, but I’m also looking forward to doing more exhibition designs. I really love this idea of research and content and interior design coming together to tell important stories.

SSR: Right. It all goes back to your storytelling.

LWL: I know. It’s true.

SSR: Kind of how it all, come back around. Is there one part of a project you like the most or one part of the process that… Is it still that research? Is it still figuring out that story or is it seeing it come to life?

LWL: Right. For me, the beginning of a project, that’s tough. For me it’s the beginning of the project. And then putting on the final touches at the end, I think are most exciting. At the beginning are so many possibilities. So like I said, the initial research is very exciting, when you start to think about the possibilities of creating the space of the different combinations of colors and patterns and textures. So there’s just a lot of ideas that are generated. And there’s just a lot of discussion within your team about, we could do this or we could do this. It’s always really fun and exciting.

And then once you get to the end of the project, when you are kind of styling, is also extremely exciting. Like when you see the team inhabit the space, it’s exciting to see your space in use and to put those final details that make the space more comfortable and inviting for the user. I was in Toronto a few weeks ago and started to meet the staff of ACE Toronto. And so it was great to get their feedback on how they’re experiencing the space and to really start to see it come to life is exciting.

SSR: After working with ACE and doing your own restaurant, like, how do you see hospitality evolving, especially after the last two years that we’ve been in?

LWL: This COVID situation. I think there’s going to be a need or there is a want, there is a need, I think, for people to be out more, to socialize more with their family and their friends. And so I feel like people are really kind of hungry to start traveling, to be out of their homes. I think when COVID started, obviously everyone was at home and there was a lot of focus on creating this kind of nest for yourself. And there was a lot of focus on residential, but I think now that things are opening up a bit, I think there is going to be a big need for hospitality and these open spaces, where people can gather and reconnect.

SSR: Yeah. Amazing. And I hate to end the podcast, but just in the name of time, we always end the podcast with the question of the podcast. So what has been your greatest lesson or lessons learned along the way?

LWL:  I would say my greatest lesson along the way is to trust your instincts. I always say that to my son. I say that to my friends. I say it to myself. To just trust your instincts, whether you’re making a design decision. If you’re thinking like, should we choose this green fabric, always trust your instincts. When you’re meeting new people, when you’re trying to decide what to do next in your life. Just to take a moment to kind of be quiet with yourself and trust your instincts because usually they’re right.

SSR: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today. It was such a pleasure.