Lukas Rungger

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: All right, so tell me about you. Were you always creative? Did you always know you wanted to do design or architecture from like a young age?

Lukas Rungger: Well, I think so. I wasn’t quite sure which creative direction I probably would have taken, but there’s actually still a couple of designs…I don’t know why, but I was actually designing sunglasses at the age of eight or nine, don’t ask me why. It probably has to do with my mother, she’s a professional bard and painter, so in a way … And on the other hand, probably my father, he’s more an engineer. So those are potentially the two sides beating in my heart, which came together to form myself, architect.

To develop my whole mindset and my creativity, to mature it at this time. And so this was kind of the early things that I can think back. And of course, let’s be honest, my mother took me just traveling through Italy and seeing many cultural things, so that definitely had a major impact on my future development, I guess.

SSR: Yeah. Where did you grow up in Italy?

LR: I grew up here in the North, so we are actually quite close with our home base studio where I grew up. So it’s in the Dolomites, it’s sort of a little Alpine region touching the borders of Switzerland and Austria.

SSR: Oh, nice.

LR: And of course when it comes to culture, let’s say, of course in Italy we’ve got much stronger areas in this case. Here it’s much more about nature than trees and cows and snow, and so my mother took me quite a lot to Venice, which is just two hours away. So Venice, Florence, Rome are, let’s say, almost the first memories, the first thoughts if I think back to then. That was the influence, I guess.

SSR: Yeah. Was there a building or a place or anything that like sticks out in your mind as like specific that you’re like, “Oh, buildings are amazing,”? Or that you saw like the power of what architecture could be?

LR: Yeah. Well, there were two things, I guess. One is the Pantheon in Rome, which in a way is just so indescribably powerful that it’s almost stupid to try to explain what’s happening there, because also when you see it on a photograph and when you live it there, when you see what this aura is, everybody’s just becoming silent because of this presence of this building. So that is just kind of mind-blowing. And it was, I don’t know, 30, 35 years ago when I was there for the first time.

So I guess that had some kind of major impact. Which is tinier than the hole on the top, which is actually bringing the light in, which is quite amazing. And on the other hand, and this really might sound funny, it has to do with this miniature version of Italy. I know it’s a fun part for kids, but it’s actually a compressed version of whole Italy, right? You can run through, and that is sort of the … If you imagine it’s a little bit like Alice in Wonderland, and you walk through and you see the Torre di Pisa, which is lined in paint, but the scale, when you are just, let’s say, two years old, is almost…I wouldn’t say the same, but it was so funny to walk through this compressed little Italy.

So I have to say that was really the first thing I remember, which I always kept in my mind. Being able to touch the buildings, which you always only see in magazines and all of that stuff. So I touched them all.

SSR: Where is this little Italy?

LR: It is near Rimini, which is a very, let’s say, seaside address, sea location, and it’s a very popular area. So many people, especially when they go on holidays with their families, they go in this area. It’s a little bit south of Venice, and of course this is a cool day trip to have fun and to learn about the country. So it had to do a lot with learning and education and fun at the same time, of course. Being a child at the time.

SSR: Yeah, exactly. I love it. So did you end up going to university for architecture, then? What was your path?

LR: The path was actually a funny one, when I was 13 years old I was actually quite close to go to an art school in Austria. From what I remember, I didn’t go there because a friend of my mother, he’s a painter as well, and he said, “If you don’t want your son to come back as a drug addict, you shouldn’t go there.” Because it was a super creative area, but it was dangerous at the time. So I didn’t there in Vienna, and I just took, let’s say, the normal high school education until the age of 18.

And then I went to study, started in Graz in Austria where I did my first term in architecture. And then I moved with this Erasmus Program, which is an exchange program, I moved to Brussels. Where I lived there for a year, and I also learned French, and then also the French approach to architecture. Which is, in a way, very particular compared to other, let’s say, European things. And then I did my diploma in New York City, actually.

SSR: Oh, really? Where?

LR: Well, I moved there and it was a kind of field work, let’s say, or research work that I did there. And at the end of the day I chose DUMBO, which you might be familiar with. About 10 years ago, and I lived just off Union Square, and then I moved to … Well, quite often for about half a year. So I moved quite often to Brooklyn, where I had this sort of tutor who was helping me out. I think he was an urban planner in Brooklyn, and he was teaching me quite a lot about this sort of very difficult to access area, let’s say.

At the time it was full of artists, I remember Vito Acconci and many of those. And I was just meeting people, and I was just … And it was an urban utopia project, you could say, in a couple of words. Where I did my research work, and then I came back to Europe to elaborate the work there. But it wasn’t, let’s say, on a design scale, it was more urban planning and the future of DUMBO for the years to come. And then it ended up in something quite crazy where you had a new city within a city, if you like. So that was my trip to the U.S.

SSR: Love it.

LR: And that was the path, if you like, towards Venice, because in Venice I did my … We call it sort of a state diploma, that’s what you need to be an architect in Italy. And so then it was the qualification exam, and then, yeah, that was my studies, if you like. And yeah, about 18 years ago.

SSR: Then who did you work for once you finished your studies?

LR: I actually started off to working with one of my professors, which was cruel at the time, Professor Hans Gangoly, he’s still a professor in Graz. And of course we got to know each other right at the university, so that helped. And I guess learning from a professor at some point in time is always a great thing because it’s this open-mindedness which is always very helpful.

But then I got into a little bit of a crisis, let’s say maybe Graz was a little bit becoming too small. So I had to move, I had to break out, and I moved to London. London in the UK, I lived there for five years, mainly working for two studios. But then you could say I switched more from architecture towards the interior design, and I was in hospitality thing. I actually worked close on the YOTEL, which you might know, in New York. It’s the, “Y-O …” It started with YOSUSHI and then we did the YOTEL, so that was one of my projects I worked on in London for a company called Softroom at the time.

And then, yeah, and it was…Oh my God, what can I say? It was a fantastic time in London, of course being … Yeah, just surrounded by so many universities as well. Thinking back, I think I went to an opening of galleries every day, it was just this creative entourage, if you like, was a great time. But then I have to admit, at the same time there, I was a classical, if I may say that, Leeman victim, because the financial crisis in 2008, 2009 really eradicated architecture jobs for many people there. The same thing for me, unfortunately, and then I said, “What can I do now?” And I applied in Milan, at Matteo Thun, which is an architect and designer which you might know. He is quite famous in Europe. And then I got a job there, and that was my formation until 2010, and then we started NOA.

SSR: What did you learn from him? Because he is very prolific, and his work is pretty interesting. What did you work on with him?

LR: I worked on mainly projects that were always trying to explore and discover sustainability. I mean he’s not doing it in his work, he’s living it in a way. So that was, I guess, one of the main elements that he was always interesting to develop further and go deeper into. But at the same time, I guess learning from Matteo Thun at the time was that he didn’t just consider a project, but it was so much more that he was actually considering to create worlds.

Because just moving as a client into his studio, you were sitting on his chair, you were touching his…Any cup of coffee designed by him, so you were actually surrounded by a Matteo Thun universe. And that was most definitely one of the most inspiring things, so it wasn’t just, let’s say, objects or designs or whatever, but it was moods, it was so much more. It was, in a way, it might sound stupid, but it was a way of living that he’s transporting, communicating that I think is probably the champion’s league of design.

SSR: Yeah. Yeah, I remember an interview with him and just him explaining how he lives in worlds, like he’s always thinking the holistic, everything surrounding, you know? He’s quite interesting. So what made you decide…I mean starting your own firm is not a small undertaking, so excuse me, why did you want to start it? How did you meet your partner? What did you guys want to create that was different, or why was it the right time to kind of break out on your own?

LR: Well, the reason why we started, in a way, because I guess there was…I met Stefan, who is now my, let’s say, co-founder and partner in crime and everything. And exactly there, he was a project architect at the time there, with Matteo. And he has mostly the green interior design, so in a couple of ways there were some worlds colliding in a positive way and coming together. We also found out only a year later that we were cousins, and great, so it’s a family business, you know?

Which we weren’t aware of, which was funny. Because he’s from this region as well, but it took us a couple of drinks to find out what was going on. And that was sort of the reason why we started, and then, let’s be honest, there was one client, which is the uncle of Stefan at the time, he gave us this unique chance to create our first project. So what we did is we took our weekends and our nights and started off to work a little bit in parallel during the day for Matteo and during the nights for our own little project. Which then evolved, and once we got the planning permits for that, we decided to do it.

Because I don’t know, I learned it a little bit from my mother, she’s more the teacher, let’s say, and maybe less the creative herself in a way. But she’s an excellent…She has this excellent capacity to teach people how to design and how to paint, so in a way I have to admit I’m much more the one who needs to do his own thing. So that was actually the main driver, why we said, “We can’t just design for someone else, let’s be honest. Or just follow something, or just to produce production drawings, that stuff.” As beautiful as that is as well, we needed to express our real self and let our creativity become a live.

And not just deliver someone else’s ideas. And that was, to be honest, the main … The first reason why we left them at their studio Milano, we came back here to Bolzano, found a little studio. There’s only one skyscraper in the city, and we went into there in the top floor, and that was empty. And it was empty for years and nobody understood why, and then we met this old lady, about 85 years old, and she said … And we said, “This is the most beautiful office in the whole city. Why is it always empty?” And she said she’s only hiring into architects because architects need this 360 degree view, not just onto the city, but onto everything.

And that we got it for a very cheap price, and this is how we started it off. And we took it from there, and we were two of us at the beginning, and now it’s almost 30 collaborators. And so step by step, we didn’t want to explode, but this was sort of the initial … Yeah, the beginning, if you like.

SSR: And what was your first project? What was that project?

LR: It was an extension to an existing hotel in the Alpine region here, as most of the areas are. Especially a very particular place, obviously you hope hoteliers are always looking for the super places. And so it was a hotel extension, quite small. You could see kind of 15 suites, plus a wellness and a pool area. So not too big, in a way, to be completely lost, let’s say, as a beginner.

But in a way it gave us many chances to fulfill something which we always believed was our aim, to find something like a different approach to planning and to conceiving, and to perceiving a project. So it’s kind of a multi-disciplinary approach to things. We say we are more the ones who are the directors of an orchestra somehow, and we just … We always attempted to bring in other creatives at a very early stage. So that’s almost a little bit of our … You could also call it a methodology of designing, but this richness of different thoughts and different points of view from completely different people was something very intriguing.

It is always, of course, hard, hard work to do that. You can imagine, if you bring kind of five, six creative people with their different ideas, it’s not that easy. I mean even the Vienna Philharmonica, if they don’t follow what Riccardo Muti is telling them to do, it’s going to…it’s teamwork, at the end of the day. It’s just if you have a team of players, and they don’t play together. You go nowhere, so that is just to give you an idea and a hint of what we were trying to do there.

SSR: Yeah. No, I love it. And how do you and Stefan balance each other, or how do you divvy up roles? Talk to me about how you work together and why it works well.

LR: I would almost call it sort of sparring partners, if that is the correct term. In a way that one is always sort of the leader and the other one is just always giving this different point of view. And so in a way we developed it, you could say … I wouldn’t say one is specialized on one thing and one in the other, that’s not the case, that was never really the case. We were just sort of two creative minds, but one was going in front, and sometimes we really work together.

This first project, the so-called Valentinerhof is really where we were almost like two cooks are doing one meal. So almost on a day-to-day basis, one took over and brought his stuff in. So it was an experiment at the same time, I have to admit, though, that changed a little bit. Also because of the size of the projects and the size of collaborative, so we’re almost sort of balancing it out together, sometimes together, sometimes against each other when we are criticizing each other. In a positive way, of course.

But yeah, it’s almost a very fluid parallelism, if you like, of working together. And yeah, that would be sort of the description. Also because character-wise we are quite different in a way, that you could almost say there’s two languages in a way. Bringing it together and then, at the end of the day, you have a dialect with different nuances of things. It’s quite interesting. When we are in interviews, the two of us, it takes journalists just a minute to understand in a way how different we are, and I guess that is somehow…maybe the friction as well sometimes, but mostly it’s the creative motor, the driver which keeps us always busy. Yeah.

SSR: No, that’s good. I think you need that, right? You need that push and pull. You can’t always just say yes to everything, I love it. Going back to this methodology, so as you’ve grown and added more, 30 people, and moved on to some really amazing projects, have you kept this kind of open feedback? Like how do you start a project? What’s your process like, and how do you run your office? Are they in teams, or does it depend on each project? Or just kind of give some insight to how you guys work.

LR: Well, starting off the project has a lot to do with reading the place and the sense of place, and the ingredients that we have there, the context, and so much. And also looking back at the traditions and the history of the place itself, but the other hand, just be careful not to become too traditional, too reactive in a way. So it’s balancing between action and reaction in a way when it comes to the project itself.

There’s always a team, and two or three people are very openly discussing the possibilities we have without too much of a brief by the … In this case, let’s say when the typology is a hotel, and we chose … And I have to admit, the most successful projects that we did is we didn’t really … We spoke a lot in workshops what the people are like, but not so much what they were expecting by the project. Because we’re doing it now for quite a long time, if you take … Oh, it’s about 15 to 20 years, so most of them, not all of them, but ideally they give us the belief and the trust in us that we know better than them what the future guests will be because we consider much more the vision, what their place will look like in five, 10, 15, 20 years.

Also maybe where tourism is developing too, and that kind gives us the self confidence, and them also. Having seen past projects, and having lived them, they see, “Okay, the other guys, they actually know what they are doing. They might not do everything right because we’re experimenting quite a lot.” So if you just look at a couple of our projects, I can of course explain … Just looking at this Hubertus Pool, this cantilevering pool, that it can’t quite famous couple of years, that was just one thing … It was quite close to being completely crazy to consider that, planning to do it. But at the end of the day, you need a partner in crime.

Which, in this case, was the right client to say, “Okay, it’s almost madness.” Also talking about building costs, let’s not forget a normal pool costs half of that, what we did there. But since five years it fills up these whole rooms, so that was quite interesting in talking about the process of finding the right approach to the project. It’s always shaped around the people, and not always you have a client who is actually running the hotel. I guess the quality of the projects we had so far is because you always have this family which is running it. So the hotel itself almost becomes like clothes, or like a dress which is then really fulfilling their dreams. It’s almost a bespoke … A dress that fits perfectly. So you much more feel like you’re at their home than in a hotel.

This idea of not so much designing houses but building stories, and not just telling stories, but building stories is something where we see the status quo, and we take that and we continue the story. Because everything, in a way, is full of stories, they are just hidden. So we try to find them out, almost like an archeologist, we dig them out and we make them alive.

SSR: I love it. And I love how you experiment and you push and you innovate. And sustainability, I feel like, runs through your projects, right? Like just it’s amazing how you guys look at using the land and the typology and the footprint, and how it reacts to the land that it’s on. Is that something, before, Matteo, that you were interested in? Or was that something that was kind of bred there? I know you said Stefan also was very into it.

LR: Yeah. And funnily enough, the region where we grew up is not so much talking about sustainability, and you know why? Because it’s an everyday thing. It’s normal. It’s not like in London, when I moved to London everybody started to talk about sustainability because it was almost a thing that really didn’t happen that much in the past, you know? But we just grew up.

If you talk about regional food and all that stuff, it’s very trendy, trendy a way it’s very on vogue in the metropolitan regions, we didn’t know anything else. So this whole, let’s say, sustainability approach that you see also looking at, for example, the materiality and the construction typologies that we use for several buildings, it’s just something … It was always there. So we didn’t really have to, let’s say … We just really had to reinvent it to remain innovative at this time, yes. But it’s not that we didn’t have to reinvent the wheel, I mean everybody here has always been mindful, example, to potentially create a building with timber.

So we didn’t really necessarily have to convince…Like if you take this Valentinerhof, which is natural stone, it’s glass, it’s linen. For us, fabrics, there were so many natural materials because it’s all over the place here. And it was always there. My grandfather grew up near this hotel, and he already took the linen to break down the hay down from the mountain for the cows, because they were all farmers, let’s say, 100 years ago. So that was interesting enough, yeah, we took what we had and what we grew up with, and we translated that into forms of building.

And that, of course … Yeah, that’s sort of our take on sustainability. Which, on the other hand, I have to say is a word that is … I almost can’t hear it anymore because anybody and everybody is using it, so it’s almost a bit over-used, I guess. Everybody is, in a way, sustainable as such. Not so much the sustainable building, but also the sustainable living case, which is a very strong element. Which yeah, is maybe defining our project.

SSR: Yeah. I love it. So what do you think was your breakout project, or your big break? Or put you on the map, or just one that, early on, really kind of started to define what you wanted this firm to be?

LR: I guess … Well, there’s probably two projects; one is this Hubertus Pool, which in a way … Of course it’s this iconic element, and that took us … It just was all over the place, and I don’t know how many million blocks … And so if you like, at least from that, from the outside, we became famous with this project. Famous is always relative, and I always try to be very, very humble with this theme of becoming famous, but when they see are the ones that designed this crazy pool, let’s say.

So this is this element where we had a hell of a lot of publicity. But I guess for ourselves, the Zallinger projects was those wooden huts of 2,000 meters high, they are probably … Well, the idea prototype almost, if you like, of how to approach the process of how to design, how to … I don’t know, how to detail a building, how to convince also local authorities to be able to build on a landscape which is a very, very delicate one, so I guess the Zallinger project on the so-called Seiser Alm probably the one where we also …

Two years ago we won quite a lot of awards because there were jurors flying in from New York, they were landing there. They said it has this sense of uniqueness, which is very difficult to explain here, sorry for that. Even the photographs don’t really do the job, but when you are there it’s just so remote, it’s so far away from anything else, and it becomes, in ways, so radical. That it’s down to the roots, and at the same time it is just full of very, very contemporary thoughts, contemporary designs, elements. So I guess this is probably, in terms of uniqueness, in terms also of …

When we love to bring our new clients or people in the building, , also the most … When people walk in here, it is not as polarizing, if you know … I don’t know if polarizing is … That’s often projects that people love them or people hate them, this one is just … It became a love project for us, and people are just … I don’t know, almost everyone is in a way quite impressed by the fact that it is in this very strong dialect with the landscape, and that is quite a challenge for us. But it worked out really well with some fantastic clients.

SSR: And then a couple of your new ones, like the hotel under the barn. Gfell? Is that how you say it?

LR: That was just opened last year, and you can see the barn, and the barn was existing. And the barn, we only did the interiors of the barn, and then on the sloping ground below we inserted, in a terraced typology, we inserted a couple of rooms. Which are on the slope, let’s say, and very small hotel as well. Again, one of those tiny little love projects where we don’t really … We also work on bigger projects, but those are the ones where we just…it’s always the kinds that allow us to produce some jewels. And it was quite good fun to do this one as well, yeah. Yeah, one of our most recent ones.

SSR: Yeah. I mean you have some amazing clients. Not everyone gets these type of clients. I mean do you think they’re just attracted to … I don’t know, I guess it’s just lucky to get some amazing people. Do you think they just search you out for your kind of inventive architecture?

LR: For a very good question. I guess what the … I mean our best … How do you say, the best way to get new clients is because they go and see other hotels, let’s say. So if you … That is almost our acquisition of new projects, is when they go to see new projects of ours. And because we are not there to talk about what we do, it’s actually the design itself is our language and the things are the ones who are communicating to them. And yeah, I guess it’s that.

And as I was saying at the beginning, we often introduce then those stories behind the design. And when the client then comes there … Or let’s say the guest, the hotel guest, and the owner is telling them what the thoughts were behind, and that really impresses everyone. From little child to very old senior people. I mean this is something which we always like to do, and which we started off, and this … Yeah. Sort of maybe one of the elements which are the most successful. At the same time, maybe talking about the fact that we’re not just doing architecture, but also interior design and product design, that is one of the main reasons why we are being chosen.

Because others just do only interiors, or only furniture design, or only fabrics, or only architecture. So there’s also this almost round thing of, let’s say, we have the people to be able to deliver the whole project as a “Gestamtwerk” in this place. And that maybe makes a difference. So they don’t have five consultants, in a way, that need to talk to and to balance, but they just talk to us and we have, then, here a team of … I don’t know, five, six, seven, eight people with different capacities and different areas. Also when it comes, for example, to the wellness areas.

Wellness areas are very complex, of course, and very particular. And I think what we decided, really, a couple of years ago is that we need to grow in order to have the … It’s like playing football, if you don’t have a forward, where are you going to go? You can’t just defend, even though … So I guess we now found a good size in terms of different team members who talk to the client, they’re all part of NOA, but at the same time they … It’s all you need for an interesting hotel.

SSR: Yeah, and talk to me a little bit about wellness. Especially the new one you just did, the Apfelhotel hotel, which is gorgeous. So you added a new wellness … You started it a while ago, right? And now you’ve been building upon it?

LR: Exactly, yeah. Yeah, it evolves throughout the years, the first phase we did was about seven or eight years ago. But we only did a sauna, like this sauna, with this sort of round opening. Which was the first phase of the construction, and it was … It’s very interesting how our design grew with the family, because at the time we were … Actually the first phase was for the parents, now it’s their sons and daughters who took over.

I mean there was this generational approach to designing something which was really impressive, you know? First for the grandparents, then for the parents, now for the daughters and sons, and they’ve already got a little son, he’s only five years old. But I’m pretty sure in 10 year’s time we might be doing something for him. And the latest addition is actually this new wellness area. And we won a competition 10 years ago where we already were considering this … I don’t know how you would call it, well, you could call it an organic approach to space finding and conception of spaces.

And the place itself there, and this hill, if you like. It’s actually a green hill with some elements above, below, and with a new pool area and with this cave-like approach to very close areas, like the sauna and the sleeping rooms. That is something … They are most definitely the perfect clients, if I may say that. I shouldn’t tell them, otherwise they say, “Probably they are too nice,” or whatever. But no, they’re so enthusiastic about their thing, about their project that they opened …

Last year it was difficult with Corona, but we had a decent summer, so it was okay. They’re reopened now, and they are just not sort of selling the rooms, let’s say. They are really living this project, and they are presenting it every day for an hour to all their clients. Or to their guests, so it’s just … That’s what I said at the beginning, we designed this bespoke dress and they dress it perfectly well, because a dress is only as good as you can wear it. And that is just sort of a short description of the story behind the Apfelhotel. And next week they are coming for phase three, so we’re starting off already. And yeah, the story goes on, if you like.

SSR: Yeah. What’s the next phase?

LR: The next phase is actually … That is interesting, demolishing the old house, which is not of very high quality. But they maintain it because the rooms were okay, let’s say. But it’s about a three story house with 20 old rooms, we will demolish that and come up with something special, something new to continue this story. So that is …yeah, that will be…

SSR: And then last but not least, Floris, which I love. It’s so striking in its architecture. Tell me a little bit about that? The park idea, and like letting it fit into the landscape. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on that project? Or the story behind it?

LR: Well, the Floris project is … Of course it’s all down to this beautiful park that they have. It’s just within the nature, I’ll often say, “Architects, we make a little bit of a mistake to consider too much to build, and we should also consider the un-built and the surroundings so much more than we just focus on the building.” And there, I guess, raising those buildings, like tree-houses, without touching the ground, and almost having this respect of the nature and of the soil at the same time.

But again, being very powerful in this expression of those suites, which are actually a bit flying above the soil, above the park. So they want to be there, but at the same time, they let the nature survive in a way. It’s not just about putting down concrete, bam, bam, bam, but in this case it was a very … Yeah, a subtle design if you may … If I could say. And the idea was just to create those almost cocoon-like worlds, where you don’t have to go out because you’ve got those little spa areas, all part of the room. So you can actually go there, and it’s just you and the park.

So that was a bit of the idea behind, so those … I would call it tiny houses, but it has to do a little bit with those smaller units. With a very human scale, that was the important bit in this case, to have 10 to 12 different characters, which are somehow all similar, but no one is the same. And that was sort of … Yeah, those were the initial thoughts. And it’s also what we quite like about designing hotels is that the owners, they can test the future guests by doing smaller interventions.

So the intervention of Floris, those suites, it’s not that big. We’re talking about, let’s say, three million dollars, three and a half million dollars, which is not that much, you know? As a first thing. They could have invested 20, but they didn’t want to. They said, “Let’s kind of test the future client with bringing out this small jewel and trying …” I mean the world doesn’t go down if it doesn’t work out, let’s be honest. I mean so it’s all about thinking in phases, not static, but in a very dynamic way.

I often say, “As an owner, if you have $10 million, don’t spend the most. Just start with maximum half of or whatever. Try to test what is out there, what the future guests will love, will have.” So yeah, that was almost the outcome of the initial brainstorms for this building, and then it was really built at the end of the day in timber in a very short period of time. I think we had five months for all of this, which is not that much. And it only works when you have, let’s say, the arts and the craftsmanship that is used with that. I think that’s one of the advantages in the area, almost every second house is a hotel, so also the companies who are building it know what there is to do in terms of timing and costing.

Of course, let’s be honest, every euro, every dollar counts and is important. So the budget is always quite straight, I have to admit people very often think they are much more expensive, the buildings we create, than they actually are. So we always have project managers and cost consultants who tell us, “Oh, be careful with this.” But with this we changed those, so when you look at the projects … Also, for example, the Zallinger before, our hotels are not showrooms with some super brands, I guess. Sometimes, of course, they are, but we prefer to design bespoke elements.

For example, I can see the lamps there at the back behind you, and examples like that, we all know how expensive lamps can be. Then we often, as we work quite closely to the Northern Italian design scene, which is nice, that’s the time where we spend in Milan. We have a lot of contacts there, so we prefer to com up with new proposals and make them bespoke, and quite often they are less expensive than the original ones, which of course are still beautiful. But that is something we learned that works really well, and then of course a house that’s a hotel, yeah, you’re the only one to have it because, let’s be honest, we started off with a very early design by Tom Dickson, which we used.

And we didn’t expect it to … You know those hanging lamps? Everybody had them, you saw them all over the place, and let’s be honest, if you choose products which are then exploding in terms of everybody uses them, then you’ve got a bit of a problem because the uniqueness is not there anymore.

SSR: Yeah. No, for sure. I’ve never heard an architect say, “Don’t spend all your money,” that’s amazing.

LR: Maybe not all of it. Quite a lot.

SSR: A good amount, but not all. But no, I love that you … Because I was actually talking to someone the other day, and we were saying that beautiful things don’t have to be expensive, right? I mean I think that’s the beauty of where design has … I mean quality and obviously the materiality and what you use matters, but ugly is just as expensive as beautiful. And I think there’s something very poetic in what you just said about building something that can be a test, can be a phase, can be like a step in and see how people…but still, with the quality and the craftsmanship that you expect.

LR: Yeah, I mean we just finished an apartment in Paris on the River Seine, and you have to imagine, just as an example, we had 100 square meters, so 10 by 10 meters more or less. But we had to spend one million just for the interiors. Now, you need to … Which is one and a half million dollars, which was a little bit different. That is a hell of a lot of money in a way, and you need to start, “Where do I find the materials to get that?”

So we had this carved out washbasin for, I don’t know, $10,000, you could also buy it for $300, but you find them. But it was quite a challenge, saying, “What am I doing with all this money this time?” But at the end of the day it is absolutely fantastic there, what the result was. I’ll show you the pictures quite soon, they are not finished yet. But this is then the other extreme.

SSR: Yeah. No, I love it. So what’s next? Like what else are you working on besides phase three? Any other exciting projects that you can talk about?

LR: I guess the one I’m really looking forward, it’s opening in July and it’s a old monastery. Which some very young clients, they were actually … One was banker, one was a marketing officer, so completely crossover. They left their lives behind in this case, their professions, and they bought half of an existing monastery, is that right?

From 1745 or so, so 300 years old. And we converted this into a boutique hotel, this is in Arco, which is Northern Italy … A little bit north of Verona. So about two hours from here. And we started it off about two and a half years ago, and that is just so exciting because working within such an indescribable context of all the arches and all the…of course it is all under a list of building guidelines. And we had to be very careful, but we had this beautiful monastery garden inside.

SSR: Wow, so cool.

LR: And this garden, and the new addition is a new wellness area with a pool and a hammam, and also sort of new relaxing areas. And that also is very strong dialogue with the existing garden, all enclosed by a super high eight meter high wall, where nobody can walk into and see into. And that is, of course, the context there is just breathtaking. And it’s not often that you have the opportunity to work within such a historically important context, but on the other hand, you need to express yourself also with a new bit. And it was quite a fight with the local authority … I wouldn’t say a fight, but it was a long journey to get the permits.

SSR: A negotiation. Oh, I can’t wait to see it. That sounds amazing. Looking back, what has been your lesson learned from owning your own firm and your biggest lesson learned or takeaway? Or what do you wish you knew then that you know now? Or is ignorance bliss?

LR: Well, I guess it’s quite good, I didn’t know what was coming. Is that what it was just … Yeah, because if we think back of how many times we just close our eyes and we’re naive in this positive way, because if you were just to be rational about everything, you would never do it. So I guess this was probably the thing that you don’t always know what’s coming, and that it’s so good that you don’t know it. Because otherwise you wouldn’t do it, and you would never consider anything outside of the box.

And it just is … I don’t know, this positive naivety helps you to keep it going and not really consider everything. Otherwise you just get too scared of any troubles you might have. And I have to say, recently the biggest lessons we learn is that you never know what you learn … You know, there’s so many things you do, or we did in the past, and I guess it happens for many people, but you don’t know at the time what it was good for. But that only comes out of time. So that is just so brilliant, I mean as you mentioned, Matteo too, before, we saw so many things that we didn’t quite always, at the time, understand why he was doing it.

But years after you understand, “Oh my God, that made so much sense in a way.” So taking a bit of time to find out what it was, it’s not always just there. It’s not the obvious stuff that you learn, but just because something you see and you learn is not interesting that much at the time, there’s so many things who will come by time. You know? When you grow, and when you learn, and you get a bit older, then. So in a way, yeah, that might be sort of … It’s not this one boom lesson to be learned, but I guess it’s not … Generally it’s just follow much more the emotion than, let’s say, your brain or what you might think. The rational is something.

And we love designing hotels also for that one reason, I mean the guest doesn’t really come there to count every drink you drink, you know? It’s good for economical reasons, but it’s also about the feeling that you have there at the time.

SSR: Right. No, I love it. Is there a dream project, something you’re hoping to do?

LR: Well I have to say, having lived in London, my dream project would always be the Serpentine Gallery. Because of course it’s just designers who are not British, who are foreign designers, and having seen them there throughout the years and the different proposals, it’s just … That is definitely a goal, if you like, that would be just brilliant. And in general, let’s say, maybe having more focus on cultural buildings, that would be something which we are aiming to do. And maybe shifting, not away from hospitality in general, from hotels, but definitely more towards…I don’t know, I would almost call it the relevance of a building, and the importance of that. I mean we’re actually doing another hotel concept which is going to be a single parenting retreat. So you’re not allowed to go in there as a family, but only if the parents are divorced. And when you have real troubles with the kids, and so while you’re in there there’s psychologists helping you out there, and it’s not so much about what we do, but why we’re doing something. And it’s quite different, let’s be honest, within hospitality it’s all about leisure, it’s about having fun, it’s having a good time.

But we love projects within, let’s say, the hospitality theme that are so much more relevant. I mean just considering living for elderly people, I mean that is so much, especially in Corona times, it’s not so much about fun and having good times, but it’s also about why…It’s the relevance, and those are the ones who then become real love projects and where you can, I wouldn’t say you can change, but you can definitely improve society and the people who live in your buildings. I guess that’s just the deeper meaning of making architecture.

SSR: I guess I should talk about the elephant in the room. I mean Italy was so hard hit with COVID, what’s it been like the last 14 months for you all? As leaders, as business people, as opening hotels amidst a pandemic? What has it been like?

LR: Well, of course, it’s quite difficult to say how tough it was compared to others. We don’t quite know, but Italy was really hit hard. We actually have a girl here from Bergamo, which is definitely the city which was probably one of the most hit in a short period of time all over the world. And she was … It was tough times, because we had the big luck to never have to make anyone redundant. So we all continued to work, but from home.

So in a way, talking about workflow and the possibility not to have to send home people was something we were really happy about. And this is how, mainly, we handled it, half working from home, half being part of here. But I have to say, the solidarity in Italy is something extremely strong. This issue of just wearing masks, and a lot of people when we then traveled to Europe said, “Why are you wearing a mask outside?” It’s almost a sign of solidarity towards the many victims we had.

So that was tough times. But I have to admit, we remained very focused and also positive, what can you do about it? There’s many lessons to be learned, that’s why then probably a minute ago I was actually talking about relevance in terms of … It’s all about priorities, in a way, as well. So what we did then is just almost stripping down to the essential stuff, and bringing that further. In terms of planning and new projects, I have to tell you, it was never as many requests we had as in the last months, because people had the time to reflect about what to do because they probably, some of them, didn’t have a job or they had to close their hotels.

They had to close their businesses. So going inside, reflecting about how we’re considering future resilience and all that stuff, probably helped people to re-shuffle their thoughts and reprioritize their ideas. And I guess that helped us also, we have a lot of requests and a lot of changes, where they had different things in mind two years ago. They said, “No, no, we are different. We need a different approach now.” There’s much more step by step thinking.

SSR: Has it changed what you are thinking about? Or put other things top of mind for you?

LR: I guess it has, just generally speaking, so much more quality compared to quantity. Like when you have quick requests for new projects, looking at other colleagues of ours, we just spoke to Paul Blackburn, who is a lovely guy from London, and he was, at the time, consulting Zaha Hadid, and I think she grew at the time from 50 people to 500 in two years time.

So just so you know, they were exploding actually. But for me, personally, with all the respect for Zaha at the time, and now Patrick Schumacher how they evolve, it would just be this … The time we spend with the clients is the most precious time. So for me, personally, even though there would be more projects we could deliver, no, let’s focus on the ones we have and let’s just have less projects but more time spending with them. And I think it’s down to that, time’s short. Especially me personally, I had this health issue a couple of years ago and since then I know exactly that …

We shouldn’t consider so much the future. It’s the now that counts. You never know how long that things are happening, so I guess this is hopefully some very positive output of all the troubles we went through. And I guess this is probably key to our future work.

SSR: Yeah. And you’ve gotten some time with your little kids, so that’s-

LR: Yes, exactly! They are happy. Because we were traveling … Just every weekend on an airplane, you can imagine how that is having kids as well. So I guess, yeah, it’s just quality, yeah?

SSR: I went away for two days for like a girls’ weekend, and my children lost their mind. I was like, “Mom used to travel every week, what’s going to happen when I start traveling again?” Because half of what we do are events. Hopefully we’ll get you over to the States at some point, but like we do 16 events a year, I travel all the time. And then there’s the other investment conferences and whatever that I go to, so just crazy. But anyway, well I loved talking to you. It’s such a pleasure. We are such big fans of your work, and I love meeting you and everything. I don’t know. You just seem like an incredible soul, so thank you for taking the time.

LR: Great. Sounds good, well thanks for having me. And any time soon, we’re always there for you.