Naomi Heaton

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: Hi, I’m here with Naomi. Naomi, thanks so much for joining me today.

Naomi Heaton: Thank you very much. I’m delighted to join you, and to have this chat with you.

SSR: Great. Well, we always start at the beginning. So where did you grow up?

NH: Where did I grow up? Well, I was born in London. And then I moved to Kent, then I went to university in Oxford, and then came back to the big smoke of London after I graduated.

SSR: Amazing and was design, or hospitality, or any early inklings that this might be what you want to do later in life?

NH: Well, I’ve always enjoyed design and being creative. And I suppose, actually, my first career was in advertising. So, to the extent of design and creativity, that kind of fit the bill. Whilst I was working in advertising, and I was a director of searches, I bought my first property. I suppose that gave me the bug. I couldn’t, for myself I understand why people would rent rather than trying to pay a mortgage and buy a property. And I suppose I’ve renovated that property. From then on alongside advertising, and when I look back I can never understand how I had the time, I used to buy property and do it up and sell it.

And I realized that I had the skill of reconfiguring space and making it look really design led for no more money than the next person down on the street, and be able to actually make more money at the point of disposal. So I suppose I did go on a creative path through advertising. But this kind of property element came really as a surprise, and the ability to be able to see space and visualize it. And whenever I go into property, I can see exactly how to reconfigure it. And when I go into property, I see what it looks like when it’s done up. Despite the fact that I’m standing in the middle of a decrepit rag. So that has been with me for a very, very long time.

And the move in fact from advertising, because I suppose I am naturally an entrepreneur, was to say … Well, actually, I’d prefer to set up my business than work with clients where you get a brief and then they don’t go with it. So, I had to creative people on one side, the client on the other. The client wanted the biggest logo, and the creative wanted no logo, and bringing the two together was always a kind of nightmare. So, I thought, okay, I’ll go to learn. And the obvious thing was to obviously do development. And then from that, I realized that if you develop, you’re only as good as your last product, and you want to create a service. And so, I set up a company where we bought for the investor. So until then, a state agency, unlike the states, always represents the seller of property, never the buyer. And I set up an enterprise where we represented the buyer. And then that morphed into a one-stop service from buying, to renovating, to letting, and managing. Particularly for foreign investors who were either too busy or didn’t have the expertise. So, I developed this whole one-stop concept from that kind of developing property.

SSR: But did you work for major agencies and work with big brands? And what did you learn through that process while you were in advertising?

NH: Well, Saatchi & Saatchi is a major agency. Was probably the most important agency, most formative agency, certainly in the UK. Prior to that I worked for an agency you may be more familiar with because it was American founded, which is Leo Burnett. And I’ve worked for just big brands. I worked on what’s called fast moving packaged goods. And I worked for Heinz, and Cadbury, and Kellogg, and Johnnie Walker. I worked for all the big brands. So obviously, I learned a huge amount in terms of branding, positioning, strategy, all of which has been so important for the Other House. But I will say learned about managing business and running business, and all the business principles as well. So it was a fantastic grounding to go forward in any business that I wanted to set up. And certainly I still use these skills in terms of what we’re doing with the Other House.

SSR: You’ve mentioned the Other House. So, what tell us what the Other House is? How did you come up with it? And what do you want to create with this new brand?

NH: I have a company, London Central Portfolio (LCP). That’s a company that I founded to provide the one-stop asset management service Service for people who were investing in Central London, and particularly investing in the rental market. And what we found or I saw is that, over time the rental market has evolved an awful lot. This is all in prime Central London. Our specialism is prime Central London, and it’s old buildings, where you can add value, renovate, refurbish. But it’s not the new build that you might get in city. It’s all the beautiful old heritage property that you get in the very center of London.

And what I found was that over the years, the market started to change. So first of all, people were renting smaller and smaller units. Because they wanted the location, theprime Central London location, but budgets, particularly if you’re a corporate tenant, constrained. Then you saw the emergence of people expecting really aspirational design and lifestyle. And more recently, we saw people wanting service to click for finger. And at that point, I thought, well, we’re just renting a bunch of hotel rooms. So why don’t we provide them with what they want, which is this kind of hotel style living, coupled with the wonderful sense of place you get from being a long stay rental tenant.

And once we started examining the market, we saw that the divides between hotel service departments, which is still a very small sector in the UK, and long stay rental, we’re just artificial divide. So we were being used by the same people, but at different stages of their life. And at the one end, on the hotel end, you had probably great service. But it’s rather cold, and formal, and itinerant. Now the other end, you have this wonderful sense of place, but not the service.

And what we wanted to do was to create an offering, which created that sense of place provided people with service as and when they wanted it, not forced on them, but as and when they wanted it. But also, for people who were staying for day, a week, a month or a year. So completely flexible stay. So what’s really new about the concept is that sense of you can stay, you can live as a resident here, for as long as you want a day or a year. But then combining it with a really homely environment. But using an app, and the app and the technology is absolutely fundamental to our concept. You can dial in service or dial out of service, whatever you want to do. And the other key element, core element of it was the fact that rather than it being a boxy hotel room, we’ve created what we call club flats. And they have a distinct living area, distinct sleeping area, and a kitchen.

So you can be in your own private area, your own personal space, if that’s what you want. And we spent the last 30 years creating, or making, or optimizing small spaces to create a home. So you know space saving, gives the most just clever use of space. And that in itself is a fundamental difference from a hotel. And we’ve had to take our architects and our interior designers on a big journey to understand what we had in mind. Well, then it was absolutely in our DNA. Because that’s taking a really small or rather a very large example, in most hotels, and often their service departments, you go through your sleeping area past your bed, to get to maybe you’re sitting area and a desk or whatever it may be.

But if you were living in your home, you will always have your sitting area before your sleeping area. So you can hide all your junk there, and you will entertain your entertaining space and there’ll be something behind. So just a fundamental change like that, changes the ethos. So we have these flood flats, where people can be independent. But also we created this area, which is just for residents. There’s a club area, a space with a couple of bars and a spa, where you can just be quiet and relax, but not be part of the public scene.

And then we create a vibrant, fantastic destination area, where the public can come in, if you want that vibe. So it’s a different approach to how you want to create your spaces with an area so that people do feel it’s their second home. They feel like it’s their other house, hence The Other House. Where are you staying, I’m staying at The Other House. And it could be The Other House of Kensington or The Other House from Garden. But it’s making people feel that they have this real genuine sense of place.

The resident’s bar channels a members-only club lounge

SSR: And is that what you think of as the next iteration of lifestyle? Is that where you’re trying to take hospitality and hotels and merge everything you’ve done into this kind of new concept?

NH: Yes, I think it’s very much the next stage of hospitality. And I think other people are waking up to it and will eventually be able to develop a product. We’re fortunate enough that this was a blueprint eight years ago. And it’s taken us this long to get to the point where we can bring it to market. It was still a concept on a piece of paper, when we formed the company in December 19, when we bought the first asset in South Kensington. And the two and a half years, and we have to launch it next spring, we’d have gone from concept, to a living breathing reality. But what it offers, and I really feel it’s a sign of its time, is one the kind of sense of flexibility.

The fact that we believe that the nature of travel will alter that it’ll be more slow travel. That probably as people become more socially and environmentally responsible, the corporates will send their people out for fewer, fewer longer trips. And if you are coming out on business, you may well combine it with leisure. So we feel that this kind of flexible stay concept is just exactly what people are looking for. We also feel that that ability to be independent in your room, and not feel you’re just in an impersonal box is going to become really, really important. And of course, with COVID everyone’s got used to tech. If we brought this out even two years ago, we probably would have been too early.

Ordering your food and your drinks, on your phones. And also you want to limit touch points. And in a way, we always felt the kind of people that were going to be using our hotels would be people who want to be in control of what they’re doing. They’re independent minded, they’re in control, they’ll have service when they want it, but they won’t have it when they don’t want it. They don’t want a lot of people fawning over them. They want to be able to check in on their phone, walk straight through concierge. And then they want to be able to go straight out there, open their club flat, do their room controls, right through to ordering your food and your drinks and everything else.

And I think that this whole tech element has now become very much what people are used to. And the beauty of what we’re doing is, we are developing a completely new app that will take you through the entire process, but not being disjointed or interfacing with other apps or other systems. That we will be able to take you through that user journey in a branded kind of way, which is going to be synced with the branding of the Other House and how we want to present The Other House. So I feel at flexibility, personal space, are all exactly where the market is going to go.

And that currently hotels are boarding bits and pieces on. Service departments are becoming a little bit more techie. Although they’re still, in the UK, very behind the times. I think it is where we’re going to come. And this artificial divide that we have certainly in the UK is just going to be broken down. And it’s quite interesting that when we talk to the clients about it, they’re not resistant to it. Whereas even a few years ago, they would have been very, very resistant. The idea of longest stays within a hotel. But it’s the way of the future.

SSR: I completely agree. Because I think and people are reexamining how they travel, right? And who they travel with. And especially me, with young children, staying longer and kind of doing that hybrid, I think it’s such a great time for this to be launching. And design wise, I know it’s the Other House, you want it homey. Can you give us a little bit of insight of what you’re trying to create? And who did you bring in to collaborate with you?

NH: Absolutely. The first thing to mention before I get onto the design elements it is part of the building design. Another key pillar is sustainability. Our joint venture partner is APG, which is the fifth biggest pension fund in the world. That is completely corporate governance, treating people well and sustainability, actually the top of their agenda. Obviously, we are using our buildings so of course, that’s environmentally much better. But equally, we are monitoring energy, our guests will know how much energy that they’re going to be using. In the London residents’ clubs, we’re using local or British manufacturers and so forth. So that is all a part of our story.

In terms of the design, it is going to be bold, clubby and contemporary. We’ve worked with an interior designer called Bergman Design House. They are absolutely on a fantastic upward trajectory in the UK. Although they work also in the Middle East and they also do work on yachts. They won the UK Brit Hotel Design Awards last year after we had appointed them. And they actually get exactly what we were wanting to do, and what we were aspiring to. And it’s very vibrant. It’s grown up. Because actually, we’re targeting grownups. That kind of mentally. We feel that these are people who are aspirational. They have values, they know where they want to be, and where they want to go.

But it’s really cool. It’ll be super cool. We’re using very strong colors. And both the interior designer Marie Soliman who’s the cofounder, and I absolutely jelled on the fact that we’re using burgundy and teal and dark green. And it’s quite lavish and lush, and a huge sensory experience. The destination bar is just going to, I think, blow everybody’s minds. Because we want it to be a place that people want to come to. So although it is a sense of place we’re creating, it’s probably not the home that you would live in at home. But it may be the home that you would aspire to live in, or that if you had the boldness you might create. So it’s going to be a really great interior design experience. So lots of deep colors, fantastic kind of wallpaper designs, which are really cool.

And in fact, if you go to otherhouse.com, you will see one of the wallpaper designs, which is of an owl and a monkey. There’s a Latin phrase, it’s wise as an owl, curious as a monkey. Because that’s how we see the guests that are coming to us. We also have humor, and we’re self-deprecating, and we don’t take ourselves too seriously. Our architect are called Falconer Chester Hall (FCH). And they are an eminent British firm of architects. And we worked with both them and with Bergman. Both on our first asset in South Kensington, and now on our asset in Covent Garden. Because we work as a complete collaborative partnership. It’s a really fantastic experience and certainly talking to our architect, they’ve never been in an experience where the client or the owner is so collaborative and integrating with the people who are consultants.

The Library will radiate a residential-style warmth

SSR: And how did you pick Bergman?

NH: We did a beauty parade of different interior designers. We met a lot of them. And I suppose out of that, various people came up with good ideas. I think there’s Shawn, and particularly Marie has great enthusiasm and zest of life. She’s a kind of life enhancer. And that was immediate when I met her. And then when they came for their kind of second round pitch, she actually spoke to her partner, who thought that I wanted to kind of scan the look. And Marie said, ‘No, that’s not what she’s looking for.’ Fortunately, they choose the right option. So when they came to present, they’d really kind of hit the button on the head. Sorry, the nail on the head. In terms of the kind of the kind of feel and look we wanted, and it’s been a wonderful partnership, all the way through. And I think we’ll be producing some really, really exciting results.

SSR: And did you use designers on your other properties as well? Or was that all you?

NH: So of all the properties we’ve done before, when we were targeting the private rental sector, which is obviously the history of the company. We’ve always done our design internally. So we’ve had our own interior designers, our own project managers, and so forth. I think that was also a surprise for our consultants. Because actually, we’ve done it. And also, we’ve worked on being the provider side, rather than the client side. In fact, that’s the most of my life. So we just don’t approach it in the way that the client would, because we’ve done it all. And we know how to do it. So we haven’t employed other interior designers until this particular project, when of course we needed it.

Because it was such a very, very large project. And because we didn’t have that same kind of hospitality experience in front of house and all of that kind of thing. But we’ve moved with our architect and our interior designer to the next project, because we love working with them so much. And the Covent Garden project will be on a theme, but it will be different. Because again, from my advertising background, we need to create this brand and this brand awareness really quickly. That’s why I want to do it. And you have one name, the Other House. And then the Other House South Kensington, the Other House Covent Garden, the Other House, wherever it may be. So we have one name. And they will move with all our residents clubs. And I want them to feel that you’re coming into something which is familiar. Yes, there were sorts of little secrets and differences that you’ll get to see, and know, and enjoy as you move from club to club around the world because our intention is absolutely to be global.

SSR: Tell me more about your idea for the resident’s club. So is it locals get to join? Is it just for those staying there? Tell me how you see that growing and evolving?

NH: It will be twofold. The first thing is it’s a club for our residents so that when our residents come, they feel part of a club, not necessarily community because they’re kind of independent. Or rather, a community but not necessarily community in terms of geography, but community in terms of having the same attitude of mind. We very much want that to not only be something you use when you were staying, but something you’re going to look into. What’s happening in South Kensington or Covent Garden? What the story is? What’s going on at the Other House? And producing useful and nice and creative material.

But we wanted our residents to feel this kind of club vibe that it was their place and that’s why we wanted to call it the residence club. But equally we will open the club element, the bits which are just residents only, to members to begin with it will be a very small number of select members, probably kind of ambassadors and thought leaders that we’re going to integrate into creating some form of cultural committee in terms of helping us develop the brand values and how we’re going to communicate it. But then it would be open to local residents, they don’t have to be local. But the likelihood is, they’re going to be open to local residents.

And we have, as well as these two great bars and the spa, which are in the residents club, we have meeting rooms that can also be used as private dining rooms, we have a lovely library. And so yes, we will want to open it up to a private membership, we’ll take it quite slowly, one because we want it to be exclusive. And secondly, because of assessing the demand from our residents as to how much we can open it up to other people. But what we want is to give you our resident of the Other House South Kensington, you can go and use a club in Covent Garden, if you’re over there and you want to use that. And certainly, our members will be able to do the same thing.

SSR: Amazing. And then you’ve mentioned sustainability as being very important. How are you integrating that even more than just the building? And how does wellness play a factor in the Other House and moving forward overall?

NH: Well, wellness of course, derives a lot from the environment that you’re in, and the experiences you feel. And the fact that we want to create this really grounded sense of place where you also feel part of the locality that you don’t feel like a tourist, you feel like an individual, and that our staff will be talking to you at that level. Because we have the app and a lot of the mundane elements of hotel interactions can be removed. It means that the people that we use to be front of house, can really interact in a kind of adult meaningful way with the guests. So I think wellness is partly the atmosphere that we’re able to create. Clearly, then there’s going to be physical wellness.

So we have a lot of natural planting within the building. I don’t like using the word biophilia. Until two years ago, I’d never even heard of it. But we have these wonderful inner courtyards that we put in all the way through the residence club in South Kensington, and we’re going to have one in Covent Garden as well. It kind of seems to be a theme at the moment, where we will have wonderful natural vegetation. In fact, they’re trees, so it’s not really plants, it’s trees, which I think is really nice. A lot of trees in the lobby. As I mentioned to you, we will be monitoring the energy.

And then part of the app will be showing how much energy that people are using and whether it’s above what it should be. When we get to Covent Garden, you will probably be able to monitor every single rooms used at the moment, it’s going to be hotel wide. We have a spa with a vitality pool and steam room, and sauna. And in the club area, we have this courtyard, which just kind of feels like an inside space, or an outside space inside. Which is light and tree filled. And then the destination bar, because the double height atrium, you sit in that, you can open the windows and be in the treetops. So there are lots of touches all the way through that will just add to people’s sense of wellbeing.

The Other House prioritizes wellness with a spa dedicated for residents

SSR: That’s amazing. And what part of the process do you like the most? You can just see your passion. What is it that you love about the process? Is it the beginning? Is it the branding still? Is it getting nitty gritty in the design details? Or is it a mixture of all of it?

NH: Well, of course it’s a mixture of all of it. Because I suppose the exciting thing is, to have had an idea that you’ve nurtured for a long time and getting it to the point where we were able to start talking to possible co-investors, where we got to the point of securing our investor, and then being able to realize the concept to make it a reality. So of course, it is extremely exciting, and I have to admit nerve wracking, to be going from the concept to the reality. That in itself is just amazing. Also, I suppose the excitement was creating or transforming the face of hospitality in Central London. People would say to me, why on earth are you moving from LCP, which I’m still chairman but no longer CEO, and moving into this new project. And it’s because it’s going to make a difference. And that has to be exciting.

And then of course, it is connecting all the moving parts, and there are so many moving parts. So whether it be the branding, the positioning, developing the web, developing the app, dealing with the interior design, working out how it’s going to operate, and what the guest is journey is inside the hotel. And how we’re going to make every single element operate. So for example, things like the fact that we have an area where people are going to be able to pick up their Amazon passes and their Deliveroo passes, because we know that’s part of what people doing in hotels now.

But doing it in a way that we don’t have moped drivers coming in through the lobby. So all the logistics in the operation, and how it’s going to work with the app, and what’s on the app and what’s not on the app. And how people are going to get what they want. Right through to now where we are building up the operational team. And clearly a process, a whole kind of financial modeling and making sure that all of the budgeting is going as we want it to. So I love the whole picture. But I suppose I am a creative, an entrepreneur. So I love the entrepreneurial bit and making it happen. Never taking no for an answer. If there is a roadblock, finding a way around it, and maybe coming up with a bigger solution.

I love of course the architectural side. I love the interior design. I love the branding, because that kind of feeds into the creative side. So I have to admit that I really enjoy that side. And I’m bringing the brand to life in creating a living being with the brand. So I do adore that. But of course, it’s making all the moving parts fit together, and hopefully clicked together with the fabulous end results next spring.

SSR: And that’s what I was going to ask you. So is it next spring? Is that what you’re hoping for?

NH: So the South Kensington is due to open in spring 2022, Covent Garden will open in autumn 2023. But we are actively looking at acquiring other assets, probably another four in prime central London. So if something may open, will open in the interim, maybe if it’s a slightly smaller asset. And at that point, we will look to move abroad, and I suspect our first destination will be New York.

SSR: That would make me happy. And then so you have this amazing drive. You bought a flat young, where does that come from? Did you have mentors along the way? Was that something from your childhood? Where do you think you get this kind of passion and drive?

NH: The drive is presumably in my genes, somewhere along the line. Because I do have a phenomenal drive. And if any they’re not saying, not ever accepting no, and never accepting things which aren’t up to the right standard. I can’t tell you exactly where it’s come from, but obviously, it’s always been there. From going to Oxford, being the female director at Saatchi, to setting up LCP, to making that a well-respected, well recognized offering within the international market, although we only have acquired in central London.

I move forward. I say what I think, I’m straight down the line. If someone hasn’t done right, I’ll tell them, then it’s done. It’s over, move on to the next thing. And I have this thing about moving on. So it is a personal characteristic I have. And it’s part of me, and I can’t really explain where it’s come from or where it was derived. It’s just always been there.

SSR: Love it, and tell us a little bit about yourself too. What’s your house like? Does your house evoke some of what’s come out of Other House?

NH: Yes. Well, if you. If you Google me, you may find some pictures of my house. Because it has been featured a few times. And yes, there are. It’s a very eclectic house. It’s full of very strong colors. It’s full of a lovely mix of different antiques and collectors’ items. It’s not going to be for everybody’s taste. But it very much, there is the feel and look of the house in the Other House. The Other House is just a bigger version of my house. But there certainly is an element of that. Because I didn’t want to create the white scandi look. I didn’t want to have the industrial look. I think they’ve all been done an awful lot.

And obviously, interiors are getting braver, and hospitality normally leads the way. Hospitality interior has always been so much further advanced to my mind than residential. And that was partly in the private rented section, the private rentals that we were doing. The fact that people wanted it to look, have that kind of hotel look. Because I suppose that hotel look is just a little bit glossier than what they have in their home. So I suppose it’s really exciting to bring all of that into the hotel interior, but there’s definitely a flavor of my home in the Other House without any doubt. And hopefully the Other House takes it even further. With the help of Marie and her inspiration and insights.

SSR: Speaking of inspiration, how do you constantly stay inspired? Or what do you look to kind of keep you going, especially over this past year, which was challenging to say the least?

NH: Well, I suppose I was so lucky this last year that I just had this immense project. That literally I think about every waking moment of the day when I wake up in the morning. It’s rather sad really. I’m thinking about it again. And so I’ve had, for me just during this period, had something to concentrate on so much that I haven’t really noticed to that extent lockdown. Other than the very first lockdown, I came into the office, I was on my own. But I like to actually have the break between home and work, because I was found that it was all becoming work at home. And there was never a delineation.

And in fact, because we were working at the kind of conceptual stage of the project, we were able to do an awful lot on Zoom and on Teams. The building work started in spring of last year when obviously COVID was happening. But we managed to pretty much keep on schedule, we had to close down once for a short spell, because of COVID. And we had to kind of keep it under control and break the circuit. But we have managed to keep to the timetable despite everything. I now really want everyone back in the office because creative business, interaction ideas, and we’re still very much formulating our ideas as we go along.

I find it is so much better face to face. The trouble with the Zoom meetings is everyone has to talk by rote, you can’t really interrupt, you can’t have an aside. And you just get so much more vitality and inspiration when you have people together. So I’m really excited. People aren’t coming in and out. And they’re doing that more and more. But I’m really excited when we get the group together, so that we can fire off each other. Which is just so important in this process. But actually, despite the situation, we have been able to be enormously productive. And I think now like other hospitality business, who have just had the most dire, and shocking, and sad time, we were just so fortunate that we were in the development phase.

SSR: Probably weren’t traveling, so you have that time, right? To kind of stop and really breathe it in. Because I feel like, it’s been one of the silver linings is having the time.

NH: Absolutely right. And whereas I’d be doing foreign trips, at least bi annually to the middle east of the Far East. Of course, I’ve not had any of that. So you’re absolutely right, that it has been constant focus time.

Greenery and nature-inspired accents will punctuate the public-facing lobby

SSR: Where’s your favorite place to travel to?

NH: I love exotic places or culturally exotic places. When I first went to Hong Kong, I’ve never seen anything like it. The kind of noise, the kind of business, the fact that everyone was doing business completely publicly, and it wasn’t remotely British, and the color. That was just the most amazing experience when I went there. I love Southeast Asia. Malaysia, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, adore it. And then more recently, I went to India, and I just adored that environment, in particularly Rajasthan. Again, I like going to places which are culturally different, because you feel you’re doing something different.

And I love that color and chaos. And Rajasthan was just the most colorful, most chaotic, most noisy place that I’ve ever visited. And I have to think that was such a high point. Japan as well, but in a completely different kind of way. But again, was so different. So I suppose I like culturally different places. And I love color. And I love places where they live in a different way from the way we do. So I do love New York too. And I have to say that that trip disappointingly was canceled, just as lockdown came in. But I suppose I really like these vibrant, colorful cultures. Those are going to my favorite destinations.

SSR: Amazing. And tell us one thing that people might not know about you?

NH: Well, now that’s a difficult one. Because I think probably most of our time prepared to have people know about me is out there on the net. One thing that they may not know about, is the fact that I met my second husband years and years ago, when we spent three years together as youngsters. And then moved apart because we were in a growing up phase. And about 15 years ago when we were both divorced, we saw each other and reconnected. So we’ve seen each other the day before. And eight years ago nearly we got married and it’s been the most wonderful love story you could possibly imagine. And we’re sad for the years that we spent apart. But actually, we probably are having a much, much better time for having re-met older and wiser, much later on. So I’ll tell you, that is my story. And I could tell you more about it and how it happened. But I won’t bore you with that. But it has been the most amazing love story.

SSR: I love that. See, I had to ask that question to get that out of you. Love it. We always end the podcast with the title of the podcast. And that’s what I’ve learned. So what has been your greatest lesson learned over the years?

NH: I think two things. One, which I’ve talked to you about, well, I’ve got both of them, which is that when there is a roadblock, you find a way around it. And often, the solution you end up with is better than the solution you originally thought of, so you should never be disheartened. And I think that’s huge lesson. I think sheer determination and drive is incredibly important for the entrepreneur, and moving forward. And never say no to anything. I think listening to people and their ideas, whether or not you ultimately adopt that is really, really important. And actually, I think moving on is very important.

SSR: Amazing. Well, I so loved chatting with you and hearing your story. And I can’t wait to see The Other House when it opens in 2022. And thank you-

NH: Well, thank you so much.