Sarah Klymson + Simon Marxer

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: Hi, I am here with Sarah Klymson and Simon Marxer. Thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?

Simon Marxer: Great. Thanks for having us.

Sarah Klymson: It’s lovely to be with you.

SSR: Okay, so we’re going to start with your backgrounds and then dive into this topic of wellness that we want to explore today. So let’s start with you, Sarah. Where did you grow up?

SK: I grew up in Florida, actually. I grew up in central Florida. I did all my education in Florida. I did my bachelor’s degree at Florida State and then to your design and my master’s at University of South Florida in architecture. I moved to Chicago 20 years ago, and for a Florida girl, that was hard.

SSR: Yeah, I’m sure the weather.

SK: But yeah, for an architect, it was an amazing city to be in, right? Right out of grad school, and I started in high-end residential design, loved that. And was there for several years before I moved on to Gensler and spent several years at Gensler working between studios, between architecture and the interior studio, really bringing projects together and loved that experience. And then I actually decided that I wanted to go in-house and really look at how design could impact people on a larger scale from a brand perspective. And I took a role with McDonald’s, which was an amazing role. It was about future direction of the brand, how you can use architecture and design to change your relationship with your consumer. And I learned so much and even the short time that I was there. And then I moved to Hyatt and I’ve been there for the last almost 10 years, which seems crazy, but I love hospitality and it’s been a really great way to take my design skills and bring it to life through an industry that’s just so fun and creative and inspiring to so many different people.

SSR: Yeah. And I guess, was hospitality always on your radar or did you kind of fall into it?

SK: Even I remember in school thinking about hospitality, what a fun job that would be to be able to travel and see all these different places and again, be in places that inspire people. So I think it was always in the back of my mind and actually the buildup of my residential design initially then to more… Even McDonald’s was more about operations and how do you bring it together? How do you make a food and beverage experience really efficient? It all led to hospitality, so I think it’s been a good build of different areas that have brought me to where I am today.

SSR: Yeah, I love it. And was it Hyatt that came to you or did you reach out to them, or how did you end up at Hyatt?

SK: I had a recruiter that reached out to me and had this role that they were looking to fill. And it was actually on the America’s design services team, and I had the opportunity to interview with some really great people at Hyatt, that people that just really inspired me. I worked with Mari Balestrazzi and she was just wonderful, a great mentor, a great person to help introduce me to hospitality really in a meaningful way. So really they reached out to me and then it was a good transition.

SSR: So how’s your role changed over the last 10 years at Hyatt?

SK: Yeah, it’s changed a lot, honestly. Well, I mean, the industry has changed. So much of what we do has changed and what we focus on from everything from guests to even our owners, right? I mean, the industry has changed. But when I first started at Hyatt, I was in the America’s design services team really working on projects just in the America’s region, working with the studio on developing new builds and renovation projects, helping guide the designers. And after about two years in that role, I moved to the global team. And so my role in the global team is much more about conceptual. How do you think about your brands? How do you differentiate them? How do you create experiences by brand? And how do you really think about design being the support system for these experiences that we’re trying to create by brand? My group, the global team really looks at those experiences and then works with the regional teams on implementing it.

So it’s changed and it’s a bit of a shift from working on actual projects to more conceptual design, but that’s what I love. I love the idea of setting strategy, thinking about big picture and global concepts for how these brands come to life, and honestly, leveraging my design skills, right? And that doesn’t mean designing the actual specific hotel. It means taking all that I learned from school about being strategic and planning and conceptualizing, bringing people together. A lot of what Simon and I do right now in the organization is bringing people together, right? Connecting all those dots, making sure that people are moving in the right direction. So it’s changed a lot.

SSR: For sure. All right, Simon, you’re up. Where did you grow up?

SM: Gosh, I grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts, just adjacent to Boston and found my way to the spa and wellbeing world just quite by accident. I took what I thought was going to be a summer job at Canyon Ranch as what was called a spa rover. My job was just to pick up towels. I remember I talked to-

SSR: It is such a great title though. I mean, what else can you do as a rover?

SM: Yeah, you just roves. I said to her, I remember… “So I’ll be greeting the guests and orienting them?” She says, “No, no, that’s a locker room attendant. You just get the towels.” So towels were my life. And I had to say I really enjoyed the environment. And then I had the opportunity to work in program coordinating, which is a meeting with the guests and then eventually found myself as the director of spa there and really liked the environment a lot. I have to say, I think I was drawn to an environment that really supports the health and wellbeing of its guests. And I would go to friends’ offices and stuff, and I would see the stern faces and I realized that I was surrounded with pleasure and joy all day, so I took to it. And then I worked briefly for the Golden Door Organization and then finally came to Miraval in 2007 and left briefly, but came to Miraval right after we had been on Oprah where we were at 100% occupancy all the time. And it was a remarkable environment and a great place to be, a great time.

SSR: Your brief stint was at Red Flower, right?

SM: I worked for Red Flower for a little bit.

SSR: What did you learn from there? I mean, they do a lot more of the actual product, right?

SM: Exactly. It’s the lotions and potions end of things. What I learned from Red Flower was a lot about actually about design. I think that design has an enormous influence on the experience of the product, and I think that was something that Red Flower did beautifully well, still does. And then deciding to come back to Miraval was lured by a good friend, had just rejoined and he asked me to come back and I agreed on a temporary basis. And then I found out that Hyatt was purchasing Miraval and it was a very different environment and it was a lot of what I had originally joined Miraval for, and I’ve been there since.

SSR: Awesome. All right, so let’s start with the big picture and then drill down a little bit. But wellness means so many things in today’s world. It’s such a growing market, there’s so many different facets of it, but how do you define wellness in the context of hospitality? And then we can get into how are you guys thinking about translating that into the design, the service, the overall experience?

SM: Wow, that’s a great question. First off, your question is astute because many folks think about wellbeing and wellness in a hospitality environment as an additive thing, which is something that we want to add. We should be doing that. With Miraval really what my role has been is experience design. And I think through experience design, we have been able to deliver wellbeing to our guests and not again, in an additive way, but instead in the fabric of the experience. So how our colleagues engage our guests. Sarah will talk a little bit about what our spaces feel like. And I think that’s… When we think about experience design, I think that the integration of the principles of well-being from reflection, when I think about… One of the first things I learned at Miraval was that it was critical that people did not pack their day with activities and that we wanted to build in time for reflection.

And I think it was John Dewey who said, “We don’t learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on experience.” And I think that’s one of the things that I think Miraval does really well, is integrate the principles of well-being in the entire experience, not only in those things that one might initially think, well, this is a fitness class or a yoga class. These things all support well-being. Instead, the fabric of the experience and how you engage the colleagues and the connections you built. Quite honestly, the value when we think of the environment and what delivers well-being is really a connection to the colleagues. It’s a connection to the other guests and a connection to yourself. And at the end of the day, those are the things that when we accomplish an integration through those connections, we’ve been successful.

SK: Yeah. And I would just add to that, like Simon mentioned in the beginning was that I think in hospitality, a lot of times when people think of wellness, they think of the spa and the gym, right? And the way that we’re really thinking about it as much more holistically, especially at Miraval. It’s much more intentional designed spaces that can support the experiences that we’re trying to create to allow those connections to be facilitated, right? And so I think that’s really how we’re thinking about it is how do you design spaces that can create these experiences that allow guests to connect with self, to connect with others? All of those things are really important. And obviously the physical design has such an impact on people. So I think the way that we’re thinking about it and bringing well-being to our guests is through all the different spaces of the hotel, whether that means in the food and beverage, if it’s in your guest room, and again, not thinking about it being additive, but thinking about it being integral to the space.

SSR:  But that’s like a fine line, right? How do you marry all these and how do you allow people to have the singular interaction or the group interaction, and how do you think about those spaces? Because I think that’s really the special sauce, right? Not that you want to be something to everyone, but you allow people to experience the spaces the way they want to.

SK: Well, and I think meeting our guests where they are, right? That’s one of the things that we talk a lot about is that the first time you come to Miraval might be very different than the next time. It should be very different than the next time, right? And meeting our guests where they are in that particular moment is how we should be thinking about it. So that again, it’s not… We’re critically saying that you need to do this, this and this, prescriptive, right? We’re giving what is on offer is for how you want to engage with it, right? For you to take in what’s important to you. And again, like you said, we don’t want to be everything to everyone because then you’re nothing, right? We want to make sure that we’re thinking about these spaces in a way that guests can consume it the way they want to.

SM: To build on that, I think that when we think about the challenges of scaling something like Miraval, that happen so organically costs a lot of reflection. And I think at the end of the day, the way… I ended up thinking about the Miraval experiences that essentially we create a platform where people can come no matter where they are in their life and discover things about themselves, discover things about the people that they’re with, building those connections. I think when we think about how the value is created, our guests bring it. They bring their needs into the process of discovery of different ways to think about things, different experiences, different internal states.

What are the things? We don’t allow cell phones except for prescribed areas. That does an enormous amount to create a sense of stillness and allow people to hear things, not just listen to the chime of their cell phone. And I think when we think about what Miraval delivers, it really does deliver a connection to yourself. And that exploration means it’s somewhat infinite, right? While exploring ourselves, we have infinite places to go and to learn and be surprised and discover. And that’s why I think Miraval does really well. And as Sarah pointed out, each time you come is different because you are necessarily different each time you come and you’ll have a different experience. So I think that’s part of the… Yeah, go ahead, Sarah.

SK: Simon, it also makes me think about the thing that I think is really beautiful about Miraval is that when you go to the property, and I was just in Austin last week, when you go there, it doesn’t feel overwhelmingly like you’re at a wellness spa, right? It feels very comfortable. It gets people to let down their guard. You have a connection to the colleagues because they’re much more open and it’s less formal. The whole environment creates that opportunity for you to really be able to consider your wellbeing. And I think that’s what’s really special about it, is it’s not this overly prescribed experience. It’s actually something that feels really natural and easy and easy for our guests to be comfortable in the experience that we’ve created. And that’s what we’re trying to achieve with Miraval, I think in a lot of ways.

SM: Yeah. One thing, Stacy, about the comfort level, I always see people having dinner in their robe as a victory because it means that they are feeling safe and comfortable and that we’ve done our job. And it’s a very good indices of the environment Sarah’s describing.

SK: And also too, if you go to Miraval, do not wear a navy blue blazer if you’re there even for work because you stand out. Everyone else is in yoga pants and casual, in their robes. If you have on a blue blazer, you will stick out.

SSR: I love that. When I think two things that you said that I just want to layer on. One, the no cell phone thing. I think I was just at the masters and even watching a sporting event that you can’t have cell phone, you can’t have technology, I mean, you just become very present, right? You engage in conversations you wouldn’t have. Or after the first initial stress of not having it, then you just start to relax, right? Because you’re not checking in. You’re not updating whatever is going on in your life. And I think that too allows you to maybe be a little more comfortable, right? Because you are so present and then add in that informality and it allows people to really take that deep breath.

SM: Without a doubt. I think that it is not an easy environment to create because people do feel the draw to their phones, and it is method of coping and creating comfort for oneself. And part of our role is to raise that to people. And one of the things that used to say is to ask people who were on their phones, I’d say, “How much of your time at Miraval did you plan on talking on the phone?” And people, “None really. Okay, I’ll put it away.” And helping people see that is one, that there is a choice and they could make it. And then how do you feel, right? Then is self-reinforcing and all of a sudden there’s a stillness and people remember. And I think that’s what brings people back.

SK: Yeah. I think it’s actually one of the most powerful things that we do that has been a bit of a struggle to maintain just because it’s hard, right? It’s hard for all of us to step away from our phones, but I think it’s one of the most powerful things that a lot of people will say, “After I put my phone away, I felt so much different… So different.”

SSR: Yeah. Once you get past that initial freak out. Okay, so the brand is now celebrating 30 years, especially you Simon, you’ve been with the brand in different iterations and along the journey and before and after Oprah. But why do you think it’s been so successful? And then how has it evolved since Hyatt’s acquisition?

SM: Yeah, gosh. I think one of the strengths of Miraval, it really is the intention with which it was created. And the intention with which it was created is to prevent people from reaching a point of crisis either in their health or their wellbeing and teaching them the skills to prevent those catastrophes from happening. And I think that it has been a concept that has clearly been proven not to be way ahead of its time. And people are only now just discovering what the benefits of the digital detox, the benefits of being awareness and mindfulness in one’s life, and how it can enhance your experience and enhance the experience of your loved ones. I think that Miraval has evolved as the individuals who commit their lives to creating the experience have changed. One of the things that is a wonderful part about being at Miraval is that the level of commitment that the individuals who create the experiences bring and being present themselves.

I think that’s really what’s driven the quality of the experience is the people who create it and the wonderful gifts that they possess, that they choose to share and create experiences that are second to none. And I think that’s been a huge part of the organic nature of Miraval evolving. And since Hyatt, I think the challenge initially was really to understand how do you take something that again, has happened so organically and reproduce it. And I’ll be honest, I made some serious mistakes with the programming and thought, “Well, what we’re going to do is we’re going to do the same things. We’re just going to do them with different people.”

And we had a group of brand loyalists come and their feedback was, well, where’s Josh? Or where’s Wyatt? Like, well, they’re not here, they’re in Tucson. These are different people. And what it evolved from that was a better understanding that in order to really create an authentic experience that is honors Miraval, we really needed to embrace the folks who were working there and what they were passionate about and essentially transitioning that into the experience, a building experience that’s authentic to those people and the needs of the guests who come to Austin and to the Berkshires.

And I have to say that I think that shift in understanding how critical the individual is to creating a Miraval experience and creating those connections with our guests has been largely responsible for the success we’ve had over the years and continue to have after the Hyatt acquisition. And I will say it makes me incredibly optimistic when we think about the experience at the newer properties, just being as great as it is and the level of reinforcement that the people who come and work at Miraval is really nice to see because who you are matters at Miraval. And that’s part of what… I think it makes it a unique place to be and unique place for guests to visit. So I think that’s a critical piece to the longevity and the success across new properties as well.

SK: Yeah, I think just to add, Simon to that too, that is very different. I think about the way that Simon and the team think about creating these experiences is what was done in Tucson and has been done really well there with the different programs weren’t just taken and put in Austin or put in the Berkshires, right? Instead, we really look in those locations to find the healers, the specialists, all of the people that are going to deliver these experiences and let them bring their craft to those properties. And that’s how we really think about programming versus just trying to replicate it across different properties. You get a real uniqueness on these other locations because of the people and the connections that you have.

SSR: Okay. And how has the design changed or not changed or how have evolved it? Or I guess, how have you rethought it or not along the way? How are you approaching design differently for wellness than you were five years ago?

SK: Yeah, well, I have an interesting thought about that because Simon just explained how Miraval has evolved over the course of the creation of the experience, right? From my standpoint, I think from a consumer side and how we think about design, when we first acquired Miraval in 2017, I just thought quite honestly, Stacy was going to be like any other brand, right? Like any other brand that we’ve acquired, maybe it just had a really nice spawn, had some programming on offer. I just made that assumption. And the first few times that I went to visit Tucson, because Austin and Berkshires weren’t open at that point, they were under development, but I went and visited, I did the quick 24 hours at the property stay and was in and out, did the meetings and left. And I did that for a couple months. I met Simon and we had this conversation where he’s like, “How can you be designing these spaces when you don’t fully understand what the experience is?”

And I was like, “Oh, okay. That’s a great, great thought process.” The next time I went back to the property, I stayed an extra night, I did some programming and I really started to tune into what was so special about this property. And it honestly, again, took me some time to really understand the nuances. This is not a brand that is easily replicated from a design standpoint or from a program standpoint. So it really took me investing a good amount of my understanding in the brand. It took Simon and I spending lots of time actually talking about what makes Miraval really special, how do you think about how that gets translated to Austin? How does the design come to life based on that? How do we translate that to the Berkshires? It was a lot of investment of us coaching the designers and talking through what was important with the experience.

And we do this because of this. We don’t do that because of this and explaining that every reason and every decision we make is based on the intention of what we’re trying to create. So yes, the design aesthetic is very important and we have to get people to feel comfortable with the design, but it’s more about making sure that the spaces are designed in a way that’s very intentional and we make the decisions that support what the guests need out of it and also actually allow the colleagues to connect too. That’s another big component that’s really important. So that’s how we think about them.

SSR: Okay. I guess, are there core wellness pillars that you focus on at Miraval? And if there are, can you talk about those a little bit and maybe then how do you have those throughout the different spaces?

SM: Well, there certainly are. And I think when we looked at creating the Miraval experience of the individual experiences that make up the Miraval experience, one of the primary foundational elements is what we call the lessons of Miraval. And the lessons of Miraval are many, but essentially they’re founded on helping people have a sense of agency in their own pursuit of well-being and empowering the individual to assert a level of control and a realistic view of their role in the pursuit of their well-being. I think there’s a number of different principles that are explored in our programming that are directly pulled from those lessons of Miraval. One of which is the power of reflection.

And as we mentioned reflection earlier, and I think about the spa experience that exists. We have an intentionally designed, and Sarah can speak more to this, but an intentional transition in Tucson, for example, from these tall windows where you look out and you see the enormity of the Catalina Mountains. And then as you transition back into the treatment area, there’s a sense of compression and a portal that you travel through, and that’s intended to shift your focus from outside yourself to within and to really allow yourself to be prepared to actually surrender and experience the spa.

We actually in the process of renovating the spa. When we did it in 2012, one of the things that was critical for us, but when it first opened was that when people came in, they whispered and they brought their voices down. And there’s an assumption that that’s going to happen, but if you do not have the right environment, people will come in with the same level of intensity that they arrived with versus the environment signaling a bit of a transition, which is I think a good example of how the design really supports the intention of the experience and just cannot be separated from it. I think that’s part of what Sarah’s identified. You really can’t separate the intention for what the experience is in each space from the design of that space.

SK: Yeah, Simon, you give that reference of the Tucson spa, and it is really interesting, Stacy, because you go from outside where there’s the sound of the water moving from the fountain, the birds chirping, and you open that door, the ceiling’s compressed a little bit, and you can watch people literally slow their walk down, their voice goes down, they change their whole engagement with the space because of the design, right?

And so those are the type of things we’re constantly looking for. If that’s through signaling contrast, right? Contrast between spaces with light and dark, contrast with materials soft to rough, those are the type of things we’re really thinking about as we’re looking at the design, the engagement of your senses. How can we do it from more than just what you see, but what do you hear? What do you smell? What do you touch? All of those types of engagement of the senses and not in a way that is again, additive or cliche, but in a way that’s meaningful, that feels integral to the space. That’s what we’re really trying to engage the guests so that again, it focuses them and focuses them on their current present moment.

SSR: How important then is community building to your definition of wellness and what you do at Miraval?

SM: It is so foundational that it’s difficult to even call it out as an element. It is everything. And I think one of the things that happens at Miraval is that you have reflected back to an accurate vision of the opportunities that you have within to take responsibility, as I mentioned earlier, that you’re likely the greatest opportunity and the greatest obstacle to get to where you’d like to be in your wellness journey. And I think when we think about being in that environment and being in a reflective environment that you feel safe, you can’t help but be open and share with others. And there’s so many times that I would just walk through the property and people will stop you and ask you to start with a simple question about what plant is that? And then before you know it, they’re telling you that, “Well, I did the equine experience this morning and I just realized I’m leaving my job, I’m starting a whole new career, or I’m going to take the leap to create the business I always wanted to create.”

So people connect very readily. It can be startling at first as an employee or colleague when you’re first day on the job and people come up and share with these intimate things. And then you realize that the environment really is supporting that and allows you then to connect with people’s experience and be able to really help support it. I think that what that does is make people so much more open to connection. And the connections built at Miraval are so strong that it is not uncommon for people to return to Miraval and coordinate their stay with people that they met on a previous stay.

And I would share even just personally, my mother came to Miraval, it was like 2010, she’s still in touch with the women she did the high ropes course with, and they coordinate their stay every year and get together. Because they really enjoy each other’s company, and it’s wonderful. So the sense of community is not forced, it’s not contrived. It is creating environment that allows people to feel safe enough to connect with others in a meaningful way. And then that’s so reinforcing that it’s just such an incredibly important part of the experience.

SK: Yeah. Simon, the way that you talked about it too in the beginning about how important reflection is, right? So one of the design principles, Stacy, that we talk about is having this opportunity for moments that are both inward but also outward, right? So inward, meaning having your own internal reflection moments, time for you to process, time for you to connect with your emotions, but on the opposite end is the opportunity for you to connect with others, right? And so that’s one of the beautiful things about Miraval is we have to, from a design standpoint, flex from allowing for those very private intimate moments individually, but also have opportunities where our guests can connect with each other.

So even the food and beverage is a great example of that is you’ll have people that come to Miraval for all different reasons, right? You might have women that are there to celebrate. You might have someone who’s mourning a loss. There’s a range of purposes for visiting a Miraval. And we really have to think about from a design standpoint, how do you allow those things to come together in a way that supports those connections and gives our guests what they’re needing in those moments. So it’s not as easy as putting tables and chairs and designing the space to make it look beautiful. You also have to think about all the emotional aspects of it too and allowing those connections to happen.

SSR: Right. And how do you integrate nature and the surroundings as well as part of this entire journey?

SM: The outdoors and nature is also a very important element to the Miraval experience because it is grounding and affords us perspective. Early on when people ask, “What’s the most powerful part of Miraval?” That is an individual answer, but for me it was always being able to look at those mountains in Tucson, just how grand they were and realize that you are part of a greater whole, and that helps put things into perspective at times and can support a sense of being grounded and not carried away by the future or what happened in the past.

And I think that that’s one of the things that nature really does afford us is an opportunity to remember that we’re part of something greater than ourselves and that there’s beauty found in the reach of a branch or the gurgle of a brook as we walk past them. And being able to be present enough to actually take in that beauty is what we’re responsible for creating for people so that they have an opportunity to actually see the beauty that nature can represent. And I think that it would… Again, foundational to the Miraval experience to be able to spend some time outdoors and realize how much is afforded in that, even if it’s a 10-minute walk, if we’re fully present and really taking in all that we experience, there’s no end to the benefits for all of us. So I think it’s a critical piece.

SK: Yeah. And I think also too, a lot of our spaces, we try to connect people, whether that’s in their guest room to having outdoor spaces or if that’s through very intentional views of spaces that give you that idea of nature. We also do not… This is not a brand where we’d probably do a green wall or something, but instead we’d use materials that are reflective of nature that encompass the space and the design in a way that allows you to know that you’re in the Berkshires versus being in Tucson in the desert, that call and reminisce the landscape that’s around you, right?

So I think that’s how we try to think about design. And quite honestly, the other thing that’s interesting about Miraval is that because we are trying to get people to let down their guards, we’re using materials in a way that’s very different, right? We’re not using… Even though we’re a luxury product, we’re not using marble everywhere. That’s not what we would do, right? We would use materials that are simpler, easier, and more related to people to be able to feel that connection to the natural environment. So maybe we would use a coarse wood or we would use a stone material or something that’s reflective of where the property is.

SSR: And then how much then also does lighting and acoustics to air quality, biophilia, how much is that incorporated into the design and the operations as well?

SK: Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that we try to do is incorporate those… The sense of nature and making sure that we have those natural elements throughout the space and that we’re tuned into how we can make it as comfortable for our guests. And so I think that we do have some elements from an operation standpoint that we incorporate, like landscaping and plants and trying to incorporate the biophilic elements.

SSR: So how many properties do you have now and what are some of the exciting ones on the boards that you can talk about and how do you think that will evolve this ethos that is Miraval?

SK: Yeah, we have Tucson who has been open for the 30 plus years. That’s our legacy property that’s been around for quite some time. In 2019, we opened Austin, and then in 2020, we opened up Berkshires. The end of this year we’re targeting opening up the Miraval in the Red Sea, which is going to be a great opportunity for us to have a beautiful new product. It’ll be our first international Miraval, which the team is really excited about. I mean, the location is phenomenal. The design of the property is so beautiful. The enormous spa that we’re going to have. We’re one of the only wellness resorts on the island, so we’re quite excited about all that we can really bring to life as we scale this brand internationally. And then we have several that we’re also considering in the pipeline as deals that we’re working through. And we also have the Miraval Life and Balance Spa that is in the Park Hyatt Aviara. So we have quite a few different locations that are really wonderful for the brand as we start to expand it.

SSR: Yeah. It must be exciting to be working on your first international project, and how are you rethinking that, especially for the Red Sea?

SK: Yeah, it’s been an interesting process because going international, we didn’t have exactly the presence or the awareness of Miraval that we do in the U.S. market, right? So we’ve had to really think about what the guest profile is in that location and what they’re looking for, what their expectation is, and then how does the Miraval brand translate to bring them something that still holds true to the brand pillars and the essence of the brand, but also works within this new location. So the design is a bit different, but still trying to achieve all of the things that we talk about, making guests feel comfortable, allowing for connection, allowing for these spaces, for reflection, all of that is really incorporated into the design for this space. And again, it’s been a lot of discussions about how do you achieve that? How do you work with our design services teams internally, how do we work with the design team working on it on the specific project? So it’s been a little bit of a labor of love, but it’s going to be a beautiful property.

SSR: Yeah. And what do you look for in collaborators? Because I know you use different designers for different properties? And what do you look for and what do you define as a successful collaboration?

SK: Yeah, I think this is a good question too because Simon and I have talked about it quite a bit with some of these renovations that have come up on the existing properties. Miraval is a very special place, and like I mentioned earlier, it takes a while to understand the nuances of it. So I think what we really look for is partners that want to learn, the partners that want to invest themselves in learning and understanding this brand. Because quite honestly, it is a brand that requires you to be on offer as well, right? You to take your special skill sets, you to understand what Miraval is and be able to implement it on a project. So I think really we look for collaborators that want to invest the time, that want to understand the brand, want to really understand and bring it to life. That’s probably the most critical.

SM: Sarah’s spot on. But I would just say additionally that the subtlety of the design voice, for lack of a better way to describe it, is very hard for people to grasp. And the ethos and the environment is so subtle that oftentimes when Sarah pointed out, we not going to put a green wall at the entrance to a space. And that’s where people start, right? Which is kind of this external focus and additive components.

And I think what usually happens is the first couple of meetings, I’ll try to explain things, then people just stare at me blankly. And then Sarah comes in and says, “What he’s trying to say is,” and then she will translate to everybody. So I think a willingness to… It’s just like the Miraval experience. It’s a willingness to pause long enough to pay attention to what you’re working on. And it unfortunately calls upon you to use some of yourself, and that is harder for some than others, but it’s ultimately what becomes gratifying work. And I think that’s part of what I’ve seen in our partners. And I think Sarah’s also very good at being the Sherpa to guide them through the process and translate when she’s not wearing a blue blazer, which is no longer happening.

SK: Yeah, exactly. No blue Blazers.

SSR: How do you measure the success or impact of the design features from … Is it guest satisfaction? Is it ROI? I mean, are you getting feedback from your guests? How do you measure this?

SK: But that is the key, right? Something I’ve been thinking about for the last several years in hospitality is how do you measure the satisfaction or the success of design, right? It is something that is so personal and connected to people, right? Individually, like how do we measure that? But one of the things that we are working on is really looking at data and information that we get from our guests and the feedback on the overall experience.

And I think connecting experience and design together will allow us the opportunity to measure what is the experience that guests are having on property and how is that connected to the physical space? And I’ll let Simon chime in more on this specifically with Miraval, but it’s a big part, Stacy, of being able to tell our owners the value proposition of design, right? What is it that we bring that is going to make them want to do, whether it’s a Miraval or one of our other brands with us? Is that how do we show that if that’s through financial performance, if it’s through satisfaction? It’s really critical that we have these success metrics in place to be able to show them.

SM: Yeah, I would say we measure everything, Stacy. We measure every movement. We have a good idea where our guests are at any point in the day, what their interest in activity level is so that we’re scheduling the right classes at the right time of day. But in terms of outcomes, we have really worked diligently to be able to measure the subjective. And we have some unique questions on our post-stay survey intended to tap into the impact on the wellbeing of our guests and how effective we’ve been. What I would say is that I think part of what we’ve done with Miraval and are going to evolve further in understanding how the experience supports the wellbeing of our guests and measuring it is where I think the future of hospitality is going. I think we’re in a post-satisfaction era and people expect to have a connection with an experience and a brand where their actual wellbeing is considered and supported.

It may be subtle, it may be less overt, but when we look at some of the key indices, and I’ll give you just one of the… One of the questions is, was your experience at Miraval memorable? And that is in essence what we’re all seeking. We’re seeking something that’s memorable enough. It means that I’ve been present enough to take in my surroundings, I’ve thought about what I’m experiencing and I’ve taken it in and stored it, and it is in fact a memorable experience. And I think we’re all seeking… Those of us who work to please consumers are all seeking that opportunity to create memorable experiences for them, and we do measure the wellbeing of our guests after departure.

SSR: I think you hit on something too. I mean, how are you then taking this information and this idea of wellness and all this research that you get and how are you, or are you then applying that or using that to help other Hyatt brands define what wellness means for them?

SK: I think that what we’re trying to do with the information that we have is really think about data-driven design and this idea that the design decisions that we’re making are driven by the experience and understanding of that experience. So it’s all informed by the data that we’re all collecting. And that we’re being strategic about some of those decisions, right? That we’re not just designing spaces because that’s what our brand experience guides say we should do, but we’re designing spaces that actually are very intentional and are what our consumers are looking for. So that’s how we’re thinking about the design and making sure that it’s informed by again, the data.

SM: Yeah. And I think that the opportunity exists across Hyatt to integrate many of the learnings from Miraval and the approaches to integration of the experiences that support the wellbeing of our guests to all elements and all of their engagement points by really focusing on what we want our guests to experience and helping our colleagues align with their own experience of having felt those things and how they deliver service and experience. And I think it is a really good opportunity to measure the impact and the feelings that people are left with in a deep way, which I think speaks to an opportunity within hospitality as a whole and within Hyatt to explore those same dimensions of wellbeing and effectively using those levers to elevate the product and experience.

SK: Yeah. And I think also too, part of the reason that we acquired Miraval was to learn from Miraval, right? We knew that Miraval was an expert in this space, and the intention from our perspective was never that you take exactly what Miraval is and try to put it into your other brands, but you learn from what Miraval and the experiences that you’re creating and learn how maybe a Thompson Wellbeing experience would come to life or one of our other brands. It’s not, again, intended to take Miraval and put it in the other brands. It’s to learn from it and then translate it into meaningful experiences that people can experience through those other brands.

SSR: I don’t think you can replicate Miraval the same way, but you do, the amount of research and knowledge you get of what people are looking for in wellness, which is exactly what you said, why you purchased it, right? To learn and to grow with it. You mentioned one trend, Simon, and I think very smart one, and I hate the word trend, but what else are you paying attention to in the wellness space? Where do you see it headed, especially in hospitality, and how do you think that will affect what you do in the next, call it five or so years?

SM: I am very focused on two pieces. One we’ve talked about already, but the other piece is focusing on our attention. I think the frontier of wellbeing will be our ability to reclaim our attention. We have reached our capacity in terms of our ability to take in the level of information, the volume of information we take in every day, the volume of interactions we take in every day. Yet we know that the levels of connection, the meaningful connection don’t exist in many people’s lives. So I think the opportunity to understand and reclaim your own attention is the greatest frontier. And I think that it sounds very basic, but ultimately it’s simple, not easy. But when we think about creating an experience that really is profound for people, it is about where they place their attention and helping empower them to identify that they can have a level of control of where they place their attention.

And I think one of the exercises we do for groups, and one of the things we did for a higher group recently is we had them join us in a conference room, typical conference room. And Sarah and I started out by talking to them a little bit about their walk there. And ask them to bring their attention to walk back the same way that they walked to the meeting room, to their rooms, but instead to take pictures of nature and specifically looking at the micro-visions of nature. And to the individuals went back, came back, submitted their pictures, and then there was this wonderful slideshow of photos that they’d taken. And identifying the fact that where you placed your attention from your walk to your room to this meeting determined your entire experience, that mood elevation of paying attention to the beauty of a simple flower, the imperfect nature of a branch or a leaf, I think it’s learning to take control of our attention and creating environments that support the individual’s control of their attention.

It’s probably a little abstract, but I think it’s the frontier that I think is going to be explored most because it’s only going… We’re only going to have more competition for our attention and organizations, companies that are seeking our attention, they will only get better at it. And being able to reclaim it and have a space that you create for yourself, I think is probably going to be the largest determinant of a sense of well-being that one can have. And I think along with that, the connection piece that I mentioned I think is people are just beginning to understand that and how critical that is. And I think when we look at the future, I think for Miraval and for the industry, it is less about the trends. I share your disdain for the trends term, it’s less about things and more about helping create space for people to connect with themselves, to connect with loved ones, to connect with place, right? To connect with inspiration, to be able to meaningfully connect with all of the things that we know are supportive of well-being.

I don’t think that we have really made enough progress to crack that code, and it’s something we work diligently in the Miraval setting to offer. And I think that’s a huge part of where I think the future lies. The other piece I would add is in the industry is understanding the colleague experience. And I firmly believe we are going to soon be required to have a branded colleague experience where a colleague who comes to work knows what type of environment they’re supposed to be creating, but also know that their own environment has been created intentionally to support their ability to deliver the expectations. I think when we think about well-being at work, that’s one of, I think the frontiers that exists and will be more and more important is how effectively are we supporting the well-being of those who make our enterprise what it is, and being more thoughtful and intentional about that. I think those, I would say, are three areas that are going to be terribly important in the future.

SK: Yeah. And I would say, Simon, just to add to the colleague piece, I feel like these are the people at the property that are delivering the experiences we want to create. We need to prioritize their experience just as much because they’re the ones delivering these types of experience for our guests.

SSR: Time is luxury, right? So having the time, having the luxury to connect with yourself with others or allow team members to sit back and really understand and involve themselves. I mean, I feel like it’s so important, especially what you all were saying earlier of how inundated we are with technology and content and all the things.

SK: Can I just say one other thing? Because I think that from a design standpoint, if we’re thinking about future direction and how design and hospitality will take shape, I think in the next little bit, I think that so much of our industry has shifted from lodging to experiences, right? And so much of what we do as designers is really inspire projects, right? But I think the big shift is going to be from this idea of thinking about aesthetics to thinking about strategy and solutions, right? And creating beautiful experiences with the design. So again, no longer just about design aesthetics. Yes, of course spaces need to be beautiful, but they also need to be intentional and strategic and fit within the framework of whatever you’re trying to create. So I think this idea of design shifting from aesthetics to being much more strategic will be very important in the next phase of hospitality as we start to think about experience creation.

SM: I think Sarah touched on something so critical that I just want to build upon quickly, which is the experience creation, the value of experience rests within us, right? It is something that we take with us long after an event has ended. And I think what Sarah is beautifully articulating is that that experience focus is intended to drive lasting meaning for people and help them create a sense of meaning from their experience. And I think that is a precious thing to offer and is easily stepped over for more grandiose aspirations. But at the end of the day, I think you use a term luxury. I can think of no greater luxury than feeling and being present in the moment to enjoy all that there is to enjoy.

SSR: I think that’s a perfect place to stop. Thank you both so much for this enlightening conversation and can’t wait to see the next iteration of Miraval and see where it all takes us.

SM: Great. Thank you so much.

SK: Thank you so much, Stacy.