Susie Ellis

Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: Susie. Thanks so much for joining me today. It’s so great to see you.

Susie Ellis: Thank you, Stacy. Thank you for having me.

SSR: Of course. So we always start the podcast at the beginning, where did you grow up?

SE: I grew up in Bloomington, Illinois.

SSR: Oh, nice.

SE: That’s where I went to grade school and high school and then college. Then I ventured west to California after that, then to New York. And now I’m in Miami.

SSR: Amazing. As a kid, were you interested in, design or did you have any in early influences into hospitality or wellness?

SE: My background is more in the fitness and spa and then eventually as we have coined in the wellness arena. So it was really fitness that my parents were a gymnast and I became a gymnast. Then my undergraduate degree was in recreation administration, then I did an MBA after that, but I was in a gymnastic circus at Illinois State University. I was always in the activity arena. Because back when I started in the ’70s, there was no wellness industry, there was no spa industry, but there was a fitness industry. So that’s really where I began.

SSR: That’s amazing. But your parents were gymnasts?

SE: Mm-hmm

SSR: That’s so cool. Were they professional gymnasts or just something they did on the side?

SE: They were gymnasts in school and they competed, but we’re not talking Olympic level. But I grew up where, being active was part of our lifestyle.

SSR: My kids are getting into gymnastic now. So it’s fun to see. Were you like floor or bar? Was there one that you liked the most?

SE: Uneven bars. I have an identical twin sister.

SSR: Oh you do?

SE: Everyone knows, but when people come to our Global Wellness Summit, they usually find out because she usually comes, then there’s a little confusion, but she has learned to wear glasses and really trying not to look like me because it gets confusing. But in the gymnastic circus, we would do a duet on the uneven parallel bars because we were so alike. So anyway, that was unique, but that was my most… I would say I liked the balance beam but I was best at the uneven parallel bars.

SSR: So you went to school for fitness, and then you said you did your MBA. What did you get your MBA in?

SE: Well, it was master’s in business and a little bit more oriented towards marketing and actually in nonprofit, which turned out to be a good thing because, I have the Global Wellness Summit and also the Global Wellness Institute, which is a nonprofit. But I went to UCLA for my MBA.

SSR: Got it. So you graduate, what were you hoping to do and what was your first job out of school?

SE: Well, after undergraduate, I immediately went into the fitness arena. I worked at fitness club and then I got a job at the Golden Door and the Golden Door is a fantastic spa out in California. That was what really was a match made in heaven. I became very close with Deborah Szekely, who was the founder. She is going to be turning 100 this year and we are still close. But I started in ’70s, working at the Golden Door and the Golden Door was in a destination spa. So they had not only fitness, but the beauty aspect, obviously a hospitality really well done, a spa experience that even to this day, really rates very, very high on almost everyone’s list.

So that’s where I started out and just stayed for all of my career in this one arena, which is a little unusual for people in this spa and wellness world, because back then there was no career. It was just, there were a handful of spas in the US, there were some in Europe and they weren’t even using the term spa as much. There were, mineral and thermal springs and thalassotherapy places and so on. It wasn’t really, until we started bringing all of that together under an umbrella and putting economic figures with it, that it became the Global Spa Industry and then eventually became the Global Wellness Industry.

SSR: What did you learn from working with Deborah? Because she was definitely a pioneer in this space.

SE: She was, and boy, I really consider her my mentor. She worked very hard and she was very creative. I learned a lot about PR from her, she was fantastic at PR. The Golden Door was always a place with celebrities and so on, she would invite all the top people from, all the top magazines out of New York and everywhere else. She had such a strong program. I think maybe I also really realized how a strong, fabulous program can tramp, everything else, trends that come and go, but she was very… They had gardens with natural foods and there was healthy eating and there was exercise and there was treatments and, massage, facials and beauty and in a very nice environment.

SE: That has transcended, decades of all other things that have come and gone. She was always quality at the top, she liked to work at the top level and she did. And she just maintained that through all the changes. She is quite something she’s still quite active. She still lectures at the Rancho La Quinta, which was her initial place that she started and she eventually ended up selling the Golden Door.

SSR: Well, it’s interesting that she was looking at holistic wellness before anyone had coined the term or looked at it from all aspects, which is super important these days. Then you also worked on one of the first spas on a cruise ship, right?

SE: Yes. What happened, it was in the early ’80s that Canard thought, “Well maybe, doing a spa in a cruise ship might be a good idea.” Because back then it was all about midnight phase and all the things that were happening on cruise ships. But, spa and fitness and all of that was not one of them. So they approached Deborah Szekely at the Golden Door because they wanted to have a name brand to do a spa, but they weren’t sure it was going to work. So they decided to convert the bowels of the ship, I think it as the laundry. There were no, portal of nothing, it was just the laundry that they decided, “Well, let’s see if this will work.” And so Deborah very wisely thought, “Of course it’s going to work. People who are on a cruise ship, they want and should be exercising, having massages and so on.”

 And so she coined the term, the Golden Door Spa at sea. So she coined the term spa at sea and it was the first one. Then she asked me, because I was working with her at that time to go on board. The first two years I did the world cruises to help established the program. Of course we know now from 2020 hindsight, it was super successful because now on every cruise ship, there’s a beautiful spa and it is now front and center, it has the best view, no longer in the battle of the ship.

SSR: Amazing. What was it like working on that first one? What lessons did you learn or takeaways?

SE: Well, the world cruises that I did, I think was 1983, 1984, January through March, QE2 was the ship I was on, did go around the world and it was as magical as you can imagine, it was fantastic. This is an example of what Deborah would do. She’s very, very smart about also wanting to… She treated her employees extremely well. Something, we all talk about now were place wellbeing. It was a natural thing for her. So when she made the agreement with Canard, she said, “Okay, I will send you three instructors for three months at a time.” She didn’t want any of us living forever on the ship because she thought having fresh people on would, be a more vibrant program, which of course is true.

She said, “And by the way, my staff will not be working when the ship is in court because I want my staff to be able to travel and to learn about where they are.”

SSR: That’s amazing.

SE: I know. Can you imagine back then thinking about that? She said, “My staff will not be with the staff quarters, they will have passenger status.” She was obviously in the driver’s seat on that negotiation because they really wanted the Golden Door and that’s what happened. We had a passenger… There were three of us, we were on board, we taught classes, there was a exercise pool, there was massages and we tried to influence some of the food and basically, we could tell right away it was very popular. People really loved that option even as they had all the other luxuries of being on a cruise ship, going to interesting places around the world.

SSR: So how long did you stay working with Deborah?

SE: I worked with her two different times. I was with her right after college in the early ’70s. Then I left for a while and then I came back, actually she brought me back to do the Golden Door Spa at sea. And then when I finished the cruise, she asked me if I would come back to the Golden Door, because at that time she needed someone to supervise the fitness department and I did. But I have stayed connected with Deborah for forever because after I left the second time and that was to get married, we stayed connected. Then she asked me to join her board of directors at Rancho La Quinta, I think that was to 20 years ago. So I’ve been involved with that for the last 20 years.

SSR: Amazing. And you also got involved with the California Governor’s Council on Physical Fitness and Sports as well, right?

SE: Yes. That was back… Oh my gosh. What years was that? Arnold Schwarzenegger was the head of the Governor’s Council because he had been head of the President’s Council and now he was in California and Pete Wilson was the governor of California. He wanted to do, counsel and physical fitness and so they asked 15 people, one of them asked, I was very honored to be asked and it was interesting because [Caitlyn] Jenner was on that council also. So we had quite a group and we were all about promoting again, it was more fitness oriented, but they liked the spa part of it because even then it was looking like fitness was becoming more of a conversation than just exercise. I was on that for, I don’t know how many years, five, six, seven years.

SSR: Was that interesting? Helping to dictate what is put into place or policy?

SE: What I learned there is, I liked working in the private sector and with the Governor’s Council, we’re now a little bit more into policy and working with, governments and so on. It’s very important, but it’s also very challenging to get things done and to really make an impact, which is why I think the Global Wellness Summit and the Global Wellness Institute, I’ve had the freedom to really move and make decisions and do things. The Governor’s Council was a great experience and it also helped me realize that government’s little molasses for me.

SE: But also very, very important and, the need, I think we were much more involved with the underprivileged and the challenged populations and so I saw the huge need there. So in a way, and Deborah Szekely was that way too. She had the most posh spa, most expensive spa in the world perhaps at that time or the country, at least. Yet she worked with many underprivileged entities. She was involved in Washington DC and head of the Inter-American Foundation. Even now, there’s a lot of people, with the spa industry having addressed the affluent, but wellness for all is really what’s important. Especially now with the pandemic, I think we all really have learned that. So it has to be wellness for all and there’s a lot to be done.

SSR: For sure. Well, before we get to there, you first did Spafinder wellness, right? You founded that after working with Deborah, correct?

SE: So after working with Deborah, actually, that’s when I did my MBA. I was thinking at that time, maybe of pivoting out of this arena because at that time there was no real credibility in the whole spa world, but right when I graduated, I think it was 1990, I was asked to do a consulting project. And that’s the time when things really started accelerating, day spas started around 1992, Eye spa was born. There was more coming together in Europe in terms of even, the word spa was being used more. So what happened is that I got more involved with more of an international look, even when I was on the cruise ship. I remember going around the world in every court that I went to, I went to visit fitness program spas and so on. I don’t know why.

SE: I had no idea that I would, find this valuable later, but I was just always interested in it. What happened is that after my MBA and after having doing a few consulting projects, then my husband had taken a company public. He was in the automotive industry and he started something called Autobytel and he was doing all investments. And I thought, “Well, I’m wondering if maybe we should make an investment in our spa industry.” Spafinder was in New York and I knew the owner at that time. My husband saw the opportunity for Spafinder, which was a magazine at the time to go online because that was his background. So anyway, my husband and I invested in Spafinder, and eventually we purchased it, moved to New York. It was around 2000 that we moved there and we helped grow Spafinder from a magazine and a booking program to something that is much, much larger, much more online, gift cards. Then that’s when we birth the Global Spa Summit and that grew into what I’m involved with now.

SSR: Amazing. Also, you published the first like annual trend survey for the wellness industry, correct?

SE: Yes. And it was actually, the spa industry at that time. The word wellness has not been around all that long, 10 to 15 years. So everything was very much spa oriented, but we did start with spa trends and then that goes back to something, I learned from Deborah is that, the media can be so very helpful to get your words out, to get your ideas out. We learned the word trend was very popular, still is very popular with the media. So when we came out with our trends, all of a sudden, all the media was talking about spas and now there are so many trend lists, but in the beginning there was only ours.

SSR: Obviously, like the words have changed, it’s now more encompassing with wellness, not just spa, but looking back to where you started there to what you’re doing now, I guess there’s so much that’s changed. But is there one piece or one thing that, really sticks out to you, that’s so different from when you started really getting involved and growing Spafinder to where we are today?

SE: I think that, I’ve been very fortunate over the decades that there has been an upward trajectory the entire time more and more people are interested in spa and wellness. I think it has garnered more credibility. In the beginning, spa was unreachable for a lot of people, it had the influence, the cache of being very, affluent oriented and so on. But when we started seeing, and this happened, actually when we were having our first summit in India, we realized that the Global Spa Summit, because we did quite a few Global Spa Summits. We realized that the term wellness was resonating more with governments and businesses. Then were the Global Spa and Wellness Summit for a while. Then we realized that the word wellness was a perfect umbrella term under which spa and fitness and all of these other 11 sectors that we’ve now identified can fit.

So I would say that the credibility of the sector and even more so now, and our last summit, which was our 15th, was in Boston. Now what I’ve seen is that even the medical community is now much more embracing what the wellness arena is doing. When you look at the hotels and even hospitals, this idea of people staying well, rather than just spending money on curing things has really… And I would say even the pandemic has helped catapult that. So I think a growing awareness of the value of wellness and more credibility evidence based is very important, to be able to sift through what’s serious in what’s reality, but there’s so many things that are evidence based that are important. I think that the credibility has definitely shifted.

SSR: For sure. And I think you touched on it too. It was growing before the pandemic, but then I think the pandemic, what I think it’s done for a lot of things, it’s it accelerated it. It showed, especially from our point of view, how much buildings affect your health and just your surroundings and what they can do to your mental and your physical health.

SE: Absolutely. We had done the first research on wellness, real estate in communities. We did that, I don’t know now four or five years ago. And, and so, because we saw, and that’s the thing about trends, when you’re sitting at a place like Spafinder and then eventually with the summit and the Institute, we get to see what’s happening globally. We were starting to see that people were really starting to pay attention and care about where they lived and the health of their home, the health of their community what’s available, fresh air and so on. But you’re absolutely right that it was the pandemic. When the pandemic happened and we had these, 11 sectors and we watched them, mental wellness and wellness real estate and wellness tourism, and Thermo Springs and so on.

And when the pandemic happened and things shut down, fitness places shutting down, spas, no more business, but the phones were ringing for the people that had wellness, real estate or wellness communities, all their phones were ringing. This was like South Africa and Mexico and Central America and Serenbe which a fabulous example of the future of wellness living. The phones were ringing because people immediately realized that they wanted to live in a place where they could be healthier and their health was affected by being in nature and so on. So yes, I think the pandemic very much accelerated wellness real estate.

SSR: It’s one of the fastest growing segments?

SE: Yes, it is. Now keep in mind, percentages are such that, it started from a smaller bubble. We had this bubble chart, not everybody maybe has seen it, but the entire economy of wellness is like about 4.4 trillion at the moment. And each bubble is a different size. Underneath that umbrella, wellness real estate has been a very small bubble, but it is growing so percentage wise, it grew the most during the pandemic. And we see a lot of robustness. In fact, we did some pivoting too, like everyone else when our gathering, we used to have the Global Wellness Summit, five, 600 people and all of a sudden, no one’s gathering.

Even though we continued with our gathering, we had 100 at in 2020 first year of the pandemic and we stayed in the US rather than going abroad. But we’ve seen the growth in the real estate sector be so substantial that we actually decided to do a symposium, which was a first time a one day event. And we did that last year in New York on wellness, real estate, and communities. And it was very successful. We’re going to do it again this year.

SSR: Oh, that’s great. And so you joined the Global Wellness Institute eight years ago as CEO? Eight or so years.

SE: Well, what happened is we founded. So to start with 16 years ago, we founded the Global Spa Summit. The reason we did this, my husband and I were working together in Spafinder. He was invited to the world economic forum in Davos to speak because he was an entrepreneur in the technology space. So I was able to go with him and we went two years and we loved the format. It was invite only, and it was more of a think tank rather than a trade know. So when we were doing Spafinder, we thought, maybe there should be a global event for spas because at that time there wasn’t. So we modeled the Global Spa Summit on the world economic forum platform. And we did our first event in New York.

And then we went to Switzerland and to Turkey and Bali and so on. And then we initiated research because we realized that the sector really needed to have numbers, because that’s what people pay attention to and you can make better decisions with numbers. And then we founded the Institute because it was a new sector, the whole spa and then wellness arena is that, we needed to raise money to do the research, but we really felt like giving the research away was the better idea than just selling it to a handful of companies that could afford it. So we gave the research away, then over time we realized that having a nonprofit where, we can help raise funds to continue to do more research and give it away would be the best way to do it. So we did that in 1995 and we founded the Global Wellness Institute.

SSR: Wow. And the research is amazing that you do. Wellness can mean so many different things and as you said, you have 11 different areas that you’re focusing on. How did you even take that on, you know what I mean? How did you even start? Because as you said, wellness, wasn’t wellness, when you started, it was more of a spa focus. So tell us a little bit about that journey and how you’ve influenced and I think helped mold this industry in a way.

SE: Well, I think, looking back it was just step by step. Maybe that’s something I also learned from Deborah that, you take a chance, you step out there, you do something, what works, you keep doing it. So what happened is we started with the Global Spa Summit. That was a natural because now there were places all over the world that were doing spa kinds of things. So we said, “Okay, let’s do it.” We wrote the Waldorf in New York and we had people come and there were, I think 180 people the first time. It was, very much modeled after the world economic forum and people coming together and we had people from China speaking and people from Europe and all over the place.

What I have learned is that when you bring people to together, you can make better decisions if you’re listening to what people are saying. The first thing we all recognized is that we needed some data that there wasn’t any data, for the spa industry. There wasn’t really any definition or how big is it and so on. We recognized that we wanted to, and maybe with my background too, I’m very much a fan of research and data. What happened is I happened to find a research study and it was on golf and it was very organized about, how many golf courses there are and what they can tribute to different, entities or different countries and cities and so on. And I thought, we need this research for the spa industry. I looked to see who did that golf report and it was SRI International and that was Stanford Research Institute.

I’m just wondering, we’re wanting to do something like that. And is this something you could do in particular? I liked how that was written.” So they put me in touch with the two researchers who did that golf report and it happened to be Catherine Johnston and Afilia Yang. We retained them to do a spa study and, it was very expensive, we had to raise money but they did this first spa industry report and they came to our next summit and reported. It was so valuable and helpful because they put numbers and they helped us define, you asked the question, “Well, how did you put this together?” That was their strength is to look at something that’s messy and not organized and suggest maybe how it can come together.

They put this together and came up with numbers. They, for example, recognized, with doing a lot of interviews, that there was a lot of dissension in the whole spa industry. The Europeans thought spas with this, Americans thought it was, this people were fighting about, what a spa is, the definitions and so on. They came in and they made a very good observation and suggested that instead of defining a spa in a very narrow way, they suggested to define it very broadly, for example, places that help people renew body, mind, and spirit, that would be an umbrella. Then underneath that you can have thermal spas, medical spas, destination spa, hotel spas, all these different bathhouse spa and so on, and then can add up the revenue in all those sectors and you have a big number that people will pay attention to.

Well, that was brilliant. And so that was the first research report. Then we, asked them to do the next study and the next study and fast forward, they are now the researchers of the Global Wellness Institute and they have done all the research studies that we’ve put out. Little by little, they have helped identify these different sectors by us listening to people around the world every year, giving us information and data, so that’s how it evolved. It has painted a very helpful picture what I have learned is that, investors and business people, they want numbers. They’re not going to just talk about generalities, but when you say that it’s a $4.4 trillion market, or that the beauty bubble is the largest or that you can make, 20% additional in real estate, if there’s a wellness component, those are the kinds of things people pay attention to.

So it’s really with our researchers that have done such a great job, they spend a whole year on one study.

SSR: That’s crazy.

SE: When they did the wellness real estate, that was a groundbreaking study it’s still even today, even though it’s four or five years old and we have newer real estate numbers now. The foundation of that we report, they went back to all the history of, how different countries have cared a little bit about where people live and that thing. All of that is in that report. It’s still really very, very timely.

SSR: For sure. It must be exciting to watch over the years to see it continue to grow and how the definition of wellness has changed. If you had to define wellness, how do you describe it to people? What is your “definition” of wellness today?

SE: Well, I’ve learned to be very careful to use the exact definition that our researchers suggest. So I’m going to share that with you and then I will tell you what I usually say after that, that is a little easier because the way our researchers define wellness is that, it is the active pursuit of activities, choices, and lifestyles that lead to a state of holistic health. Of course, they’re very careful about the wording and the point of it is that it is an active pursuit. It’s what people do for a holistic lifestyle, their health.

However, I have found, that’s a little lengthy for people. I have learned that what resonates with a lot of people is that when I explain that, there’s healthcare in the world, where there’s a lot of value in the medical world and, COVID helped this become very clear, you have the medical community very important. There’s a lot they can do, but then there’s also the part that an individual does. So when I look at it, I look at it as healthcare and then self care. And the self care part is how I look at wellness. It’s what people personally do to have a healthy body, mind, and spirit. So it’s that self motivated part. Then that can be a lot of different things, obviously.

SSR: For sure. I love that. I’m going to tell you how research is divided. What makes you most excited about this industry right now? What are you paying attention to or what’s something that you’ve seen grow that you… I know we talked about wellness real estate, but what else gets you excited about what’s happening right now?

SE: I think that when we were in Boston this past year, that’s where we did the summit. Because again, we didn’t feel like going overseas with, COVID wasn’t really possible. It was such an exciting look at the coming together of medical and wellness. We had, people from Harvard and, Massachusetts, general it’s a lot of talent, obviously in Boston. But the medical world, is now recognizing the importance of prevention. They have recognized it, but they’re not really oriented towards doing a lot with prevention, but that’s what we do well, the spa world, the wellness world, we’re about taking care of people. Doctors are not going to spend all that much time with an individual person helping them to get healthy, but coaches do wellness coaches and so on.

So I think what I get excited about is that there’s more recognition of the value of people, like the healthy buildings or, the health of mineral Springs or wellness tourism traveling, and doing wellness oriented things. The medical and wellness coming together, but I’ve always been a proponent of them staying distinct. That’s very important because the medical arena is very rules oriented, understandably there’s rules and regulations. Then the wellness arena is a little freer to grow and flourish and putting them together, looking at what’s happened around the world that has never worked very well. Yes, a place can bring in integrative doctors and so on, but fully bringing those two together usually ends up with the medical arena trumping the wellness arena, and often stamping out some of that flourishing and, individual involvement in their health.

So I like the fact that those are aligning and coming together and we’re going to be in Israel, In Tel Aviv at the end of October this year for our Global Wellness Summit. And so I have to say that I’m also very interested in exploring a little bit more about spiritual wellness or, the value of faith in wellness and mental wellness, because mental wellness is also very important with, COVID and all the issues people have had. So, being in a place where you can talk about and think about something like that, I think that’ll be interesting. So this year I’m focusing a little bit on what we might be able to add to the agenda.

SSR: Talk a little bit about how the Global Wellness Institute’s wellness evidence plays a role in helping consumers cut through some of the things that are out there and find, the medical evidence that supports wellness initiatives.

SE: Well, wellness evidence was something that we put together… Oh my goodness, maybe 10 years ago, because in the arena of spa and now wellness, it was always an issue. In fact, this was the criticism from the medical arena, rightfully so that, some of these things, they’re like, woo woo. How do you know if something is really effective or if somebody’s just talking about, crystals or whatever? So what we realized, and I had put together a trio of three medical doctors to help us figure out a way for us to know what has medical evidence behind it and what doesn’t. Because if you look back, a decade ago, all that information was really only available to doctors, like databases that would show what the clinical trials are.

It’s been since technology and more has been available. I would say, Dr. Danny Friedland and who, unfortunately passed away last year, but I heard him speak. He talked about these databases that were becoming available to consumers and media and so on, that would lead you to the evidence, the clinical trials that have been done on certain modalities. He taught me, really that, there’s PubMed, you can go in, you can put in massage, you can put in yoga, you can put in all these things that we were doing in the wellness arena and find the studies. You can find studies that showed that this really works or studies that showed that this doesn’t really work, the evidence was there. So we ended up putting together, again, this is now under the nonprofit.

Basically it’s just a very simple website that admittedly needs a little updating, but people can go to wellnessevidence.com or they can go to the Global Wellness Institute website, and then they will see it as a navigation option at the top. There’s a list of, I think maybe 30 modalities that you can click on and it’ll take you right to PubMed and another actually two other databases that shows you what has evidence and what doesn’t. We’ve had a lot of media use that we really designed it in the beginning for the industry so that, those of us who are working in the industry could know more confidently what had evidence. When we announced, this was the year that we were in Bali and Dr. Danny Friedland was there, Dr. Kinpleicha was there and Dr. Mark Cohen there, they were the three that helped put this together.

After we presented it, there was a standing ovation and people were crying. We were really surprised. We assumed people would be grateful that this had been created, but the fact that people were crying, but we realized what touched them is that here were people very dedicated to what they were doing, but now it was validated. Not that it didn’t exist before, but people were not accessing the information. So now they could access the data and say, “There’s a lot of studies that show the value of yoga or the value of sauna, or the value of massage,” or on and on. There was more understanding about, well, Ayurveda doesn’t have a lot of, research data and now we understand why it’s so individual, you’re not going to do, double blank clinical studies on this thing. So we’ve all learned a lot through that.

SSR: That’s amazing. But you’ve talked a lot about the Global Wellness Summit. What do you hope to achieve year after year? Is it just bringing the community together? Are you trying to push innovation and have talks there? What’s the goal as you’ve evolved it from virtual to now back in person to bigger, to smaller, to growing, what’s your goal with that?

SE: The goal has always been, healthier people globally and reducing healthcare costs. We see chronic disease and we really did see it with the pandemic, people who had underlying conditions didn’t do so well and that really got people’s attention because a lot of us can be talking about prevention and taking care of ourselves, however…

During the pandemic it became very clear that people who were not healthy were in danger of losing their lives. That really got a lot of people’s attention. We think and we have found that getting people together not only is enjoyable and you do business, but you really can think better. I’m very proud honestly, of what has been developed through the Global Wellness Summit and the Global Wellness Institute and the trends which come out of that. But it’s because we bring so many voices and ideas together.

This year our research is on wellness policy. It’s absolutely timely because now we have governments come to us and say, “We really want to do more about wellness or wellbeing”, but they don’t know where to start. So we want to provide them with a toolkit, some guidance. We’re also adding a geography of wellness section to our GWI website because a lot of countries, all countries are interested in showcasing their indigenous practices. What they do, that’s special. And some countries do extremely well with their health and wellbeing and their happiness and other countries, not so much. So, anyway just continuing to influence the world in terms of health and wellness and therefore also lowering the cost because they’re huge and they’re going up everywhere.

SSR: I know that’s such a massive undertaking to figure that out, because every country’s different, but we have a lot of work there.

SE: It’s true. I’ve learned to be a little more patient with that. It is a huge undertaking and we started the Wellness Moonshot, which is a world free of preventable disease. It’s a big goal, but like all moonshots, it’s a huge goal, but you can’t get discouraged. I ask Ken Pelletier once I said, “Sometimes I wonder, are we making any progress? Because obesity keeps going up, disease and so on.” He said, “Without people doing their own health and wellness, we would be in much worse shape.” That truly, people are living longer, there are technology and medical solutions, but people have more vibrancy. They are taking care of themselves. They recognize there are things to do for mental health, there are things you can identify. So I really think we have made a difference and we just have to continue on and involve more people and more ideas. I think that, it’s a big job, but better that we’re in the game than not.

SSR: Has there been one wellness experience or spa experience that changed your thinking or is most memorable? Because I’m sure you get to like try all these different things along the way, but has there been one memorable experience?

SE: I think that one thing that impacted me greatly was when I went to a place called Vana, which is in India and the unique thing there was that I stayed for nine days. I had never stayed anywhere for longer than… I had been, to a place like the Golden Door for five days, six days maybe, but I was somewhere for nine days and I realized, wow, this is different to be able to take yourself away for a longer period of time. Now, I also learned there and their program was fantastic and it’s fantastic. But what I also learned is that I was able to weave in some work and that’s where the wellness sabbatical, which is one of our trends was birthed that nowadays people, and I think it’s really true, we’re working, but we’re home and we go on vacation, but we still check in, I think that’s normal going forward that we find some a balance.

So I think the Vana experience where I was, somewhere for nine days and really had a chance to let my body eat healthy food and sleep in and so on. The difference that I else after that experience and how long, some of what… Even this morning, I had my lukewarm water to drink a glass, or a cup every morning. That’s what I did at Vana. So some things have carried over. So I think my Vana experience was exceptional really.

SSR: So do you have like a great wellness routine in your own everyday life?

SE: I think I really do, but I’m not one of these fanatics, I’m not all vegan and whatever, but I have found a balance. I do exercise in the morning, six days a week, one day I’ll go out, I’m in Miami, so I have great weather and I’ll do a walk run thing. The other day, like this morning I was in my gym. And by the way, I live in a high rise that has a spa, which is an example of this wellness living. That is why we bought a condo here because it just made sense to me early on. Now I’ve been here six, seven years that if you live in a building that has a fantastic, fitness room and they do massages and they do facials and, manicures pedicures, that’s just a healthier lifestyle.

So that really works, so I can keep all of that up. So I do exercise, I do try to eat healthy but I’m not a fanatic. I do have a glass of wine now and then, and I have a little bit of a sweet tooth as some people know, but my mental health is important, sleep is a big priority. All the things I’ve learned over all these years. That’s all been very helpful. So I would say that I feel pretty good about my health. I mentioned, I hope my sister doesn’t listen to this, but I have a twin sister and she has not been quite as diligent about her health and wellness. And we were just on a trip together and my brother pointed out that, “Oh my gosh, you are so much stronger than she is, her posture,” whatever.

So anyway, I guess I’m my own study of twins that, it does make a difference if you’re paying attention to your health and wellness. So nothing major, other than, yes, I love massages and I just take care of myself, I guess the self care piece I’m doing that. Plus I do my medical checkups, but I feel very healthy. And I’m grateful to have been in this industry all these years.

SSR: Is there one brand, either in the hospitality or like this wellness real estate that you talk a about or developer or someone you think that’s really doing it right that you’ve seen?

SE: I have to give a shout out to Six Senses for what they do in terms of hospitality, their places. Their DNA really is distinct, they started, way back with being environmentally focused, but really seriously, they were known. But what they did is they did this eco luxury thing. And so they’ve been really good with their design. I was in Bhutan at their place there, no plastic, they are so committed. They bring in practitioners and they’re pushing the boundaries. I was even saying to my team, they sent out an email this morning and I thought, they just nail it when it comes to being out there. So I would say Six Senses is a brand that I would give credibility to.

When it comes to wellness real estate, I do think that Serenbe, which is outside of Atlanta, deserves a lot of kudos. They’ve been in business for over 15 years. They really started with the idea of building a community, around a garden and they had horses and outdoors and they put porches on the building so that people would, walk by each other’s places and it would foster community and they did arts and crafts and made nature and important piece. They’re still growing and they have, done extremely well financially and it’s quite something to see. So I think Serenbe would be the other property I would point out.

SSR: You have your research team and you’re a team, there must be so much that you pay attention to, how do you stay on top of everything, there’s so much noise cutting through the noise and finding the right stuff and just knowing all the different aspects.? How do you keep up to date with everything? Is it a good team? Is it your curiosity?

SE: I think, we have some things in place now that help us with that. The summit for one, when we get together once a year with hundreds of people globally, they’re going to bring a lot of ideas and so on. I think it’s a real congenial community. My husband always said this, because he was in the car business, which is a little more cutthroat that the wellness world has been very mutually helpful to each other. Maybe also, because there’s so much need, there’s plenty of room for more and more, really good health and wellness programs. So, I think online there’s information and we also do virtual events and we just had our trends event and we had, I don’t know, six, 700 people signing up. You have all those people joining and they contribute, their thinking. Our boards, I have to give credit, we have a board of advisors for both the Global Wellness Summit and a separate one from the Global Wellness Institute.

And those board members are… Sue Harms works on the board, Dr. Michael Roys from Cleveland clinic, Dr. Richard Carmon, 17th Surgeon General and, Anna Bjurstam from Six Senses. I think our boards are really a big help because we meet with the boards once a month. We just had our meeting it’s first Thursday of the month and we always go around and everybody gives a little update. I think that’s really helpful because we get to hear like this last time we talked about obviously the topic that’s on everyone’s mind, which is the war. And so we hear, Franz Lindsey and Austria talking about what’s happening there and so that way with the COVID we were talking… We have a board member in Hong Kong who brings us up to date on what’s happening there and in Australia and so on. So maybe the global nature of our board is also a big plus for input as to having a pulse of what’s going on.

SSR: For sure. All right. Well, I could talk to you forever, but in sake of time, we always this podcast with the title of the podcast. So what has been your greatest lesson or lessons learned along the way?

SE: Ooh, my greatest lesson along the way. I think probably, I would say my faith is an important lesson, but I think the value and the health of community has been the most important. Actually, you and I are having a relationship talking right now and that’s valuable and family and that’s valuable. We need to make an effort to really have these intimate relationships with people. I think Deborah Szekely was very good with that. She fostered that at the Golden Door and also Rancho La Quinta is having people connect with each other because we are people that need each other and there can be a lot of value in that. So I think that the connection not only for personal health, but also for the wisdom of knowing where to go by interchanging ideas. That’s a been a big aha that I think, I’m really grateful to have learned and continue to nurture.

SSR: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been such a pleasure to catch up with you and congrats on all that you’re doing. It’s quite amazing. So thank you for taking the time.

SE: Well, thank you, Stacy. It was enjoyable to do a walk down memory lane with you.

SSR: Well thank you. And hopefully I’ll see you in real life soon.

SE: Okay. Take care.