Aug 4, 2020

Episode 46

Chef Marcus Samuelsson

chef and restauranteur marcus samuelsson

Details

Not only a prolific chef and restaurateur, Marcus Samuelsson hosts his own podcast and is the author of a number of cookbooks, including The Rise, which celebrates contemporary Black cooking through the lens of the most influential Black chefs in the field. It embodies his mission to reclaim Black culinary traditions—something highlighted in his Harlem restaurant Red Rooster, where he has made it a priority to democratize food while uplifting the local community. For the Swedish-born Samuelsson, it’s been important to him as both a Black man and an immigrant to share his experience in America and energize a new generation of chefs.

This podcast episode was originally recorded in August 2020 and re-released to celebrate Marcus Samuelsson guest editing Hospitality Design’s November 2022 issue.

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Stacy Shoemaker Rauen: Marcus, thanks so much for joining us here today. How are you?

Marcus Samuelsson: I’m doing well. How are you?

SSR: Good, thank you. How are you surviving amidst everything that’s going on, especially with COVID and being a restaurateur?

MS: Well, I think it’s been a very difficult, challenging spring for all of us, right? We have two major viruses that we are combating and we’re dealing with as a country, obviously COVID and dealing with that and how that has impacted my industry—the restaurant and hospitality industry—and then also the huge, even bigger than COVID, the huge virus of racism. I’m not surprised that they’re coming back to back, because when people are really pushed, that’s really when change is happening.


SSR: Right. I think the isolation, and then on top of everything else to have what has transpired in the last three weeks, was just the breaking point for many. What are your thoughts on what’s happening? I mean, if you don’t mind talking about diversity in this industry and how we can do better, and what the movement means for hospitality in general?

MS: I think that it’s great that we’re focusing on this, and I hope that it leads to real change. I was part of a panel with 10 Black chefs that was put together with IRC, Independent Restaurant Coalition, and some great chefs: Kwame Onwuachi, Carla Hall, Nyesha Arrington, Mashama Bailey, Greg [Braxton], and JJ [Johnson], just to mention some, right? We’re here, and if you want to be part of change, call Mashama up next time you want a pop-up. If you want a Black sous chef or you culturally want to change your kitchen, engage. Figure out in your community how you can engage and create a more equal conversation and structure in your restaurant.

I hope it leads to major change. We know that African Americans have contributed enormously to the hospitality industry, from farm to dining. For me, it’s something I’ve been focusing on for a very long time. This fall, I’m launching a book called The Rise that we highlight about 40 of the most influential African Americans in the field. That’s all I can do with my work. Opening at Red Rooster, opening at Overtown. That’s really, I try to do through my work.

SSR: Right. That’s amazing. Have you been working on this book for a while?

MS: Four years. It takes me about four years to make a book, do a book—three to four years. Maybe six, seven. This is an experience that obviously shifted. I’ve thought about for a long time, and then: package it, get it to a publisher and then start to work, so yeah. I mean, this book is something we started for a long time, and together working with Osayi [Endolyn] as a writer, and the journey has been amazing. It’s been really rewarding.

SSR: Wow. How did you pick the people? Did you have to start with a big wide net and then narrow down?

MS: Well, I mean, as a chef, Black chefs in the space for a long time, most of them are contacts of mine and friends of mine, or contacts and friends of Osayi, you know what I mean? They’re people that are doing amazing work. We want to tell obviously the story and the rises that, as Black chefs, it’s not a monolithic journey. You can be Haitian Black, like Gregory in Portland. You can be like Chef Eric that I worked for, Eric Ripert for 25 years in a 3-Star Michelin kitchen. You can be a beginner in the industry, like our young cook, Patricia [Gonzalez] that just started [at Red Rooster]. Showing our journeys are very, very different, and we share some, but we also have many nuanced differences.

SSR: Yeah. No, that’s amazing. Going back a little bit to reopening, how are you facing that with New York? How have you felt the government has been in terms of helping restaurants and getting you guys back on your feet?

MS: I mean, we deal with our opening. We listen to what the governor and the mayor says, and it’s been a little start-and-stop because we had the curfew, which hadn’t happened in New York since the ’40s. Then when we opened for the second time, it got really wild downtown, which then they shut down all the patios. On Monday, we started Phase 2, which we started with take-out and delivery about two weeks ago, then we started on the patio on Monday. In between that, we’ve served together with World Central Kitchen, north of 120,000 meals. We pretty quickly converted Red Rooster to a community kitchen, and been working with our World Central Kitchen ever since. We served, between Newark, Harlem and Overtown, over 120,000 meals.

SSR: That’s amazing. Just the fact that you had that capability just to give back like that. I mean, I know that’s always been something very big and dear to you, but I applaud you for doing that.

MS: Thank you.

SSR: Let’s start a little bit about your story, because I think this will all weave together, but did you always know that you wanted to be a chef? Can you talk a little bit about growing up, and what some of your early influences were that got you to where you are today?

MS: Well, I was cooking always with my grandmother when I was a kid. I basically knew two things. I knew how to play soccer and knew how to cook. Surprising enough, there’s a lot of similarities. High energy, you work on a team. You listen to chef or you listen to coach, and there’s a lot of humility and work ethic in both.

SSR: Yeah. Do you still play soccer?

MS: As often as I can, yes.

SSR: That’s awesome. Where did you grow up?

MS: On the West Coast in Sweden, Gothenburg.

SSR: Then when did you come over to the States?

MS: In the mid-’90s.

SSR: Was that before culinary school or after, or did you go to culinary school?

MS: I mean, I went to a very simple culinary program in Gothenburg at a public school, and my culinary school was really going to Japan as a kid, working, going to a 3-Star Michelin restaurant when I was 19, 20, working in Switzerland. I feel like my culinary school was really working in the world. As a young Black kid, there was a lot of doors shut but there was some open, and I made sure that I took every single one of them.

SSR: What were some of those doors that opened for you? The one in Japan, then where did you go from there, and how did you start to weave your way through the industry to get to where you are today?

MS: Well, I mean, I was lucky. I had the guidance of my parents and mentors in the industry early on. I remember when I was 19, I worked in the best restaurant in Gothenburg. That was like, wow. Gothenburg is like—I call it Pittsburgh-on-the-Sea, you know what I mean? It’s a blue-collar town where Volvo and Saab come from. It’s definitely a blue-collar city, so fine dining at that time was not that common, so for me to get a chance to work there, it changed my life. Through that, I got a chance to meet my mentors, and they sent me to France, and they sent me to Switzerland. This idea about mentorship is very, very important.

SSR: I know that’s also important to you still—mentoring people. Can you talk a little bit about how you do that now with your own company, and how you find new people to work in your restaurants?

MS: Yeah. I mean, we work a lot with C-CAP, Careers Through Culinary Arts. I’m actually going right after this over there and do something with C-CAP. C-CAP is a program that really guides high-school students to get into culinary schools, then after school, we’re there hopefully with guidance and mentorship for jobs. Our of the beautiful things about our industry is that we have mentorships, we have guidance, and it’s one of the best things about our industry, actually, something that’s very dear to me.

SSR: What do you think was your big break? I mean, what do you think was the point of your career where you felt that you made it, or it was your big moment before you broke out on your own, or maybe it was when you broke out on your own?

MS: Well, I mean, I don’t look at it really like that. I love cooking. I love the field, so I don’t want to break out from it. I want to be in it, fully. I would probably say that finding my passion and calling early, I’ve been very, very blessed with that. There’s a lot of people work their whole life. My grandmother worked her whole life, and not once did anyone ask her if she had a great day, if she liked her job. She just did, you know what I mean? I think if you are deeply passionate and curious about your field, that is a luxury. For everything that has happened to me, it’s within the industry. It’s something that I really love to do.

Getting the 3 Stars from The New York Times or winning James Beard Awards or having my TV show or opening Red Rooster or cooking for the Obamas, those are all great accomplishments, but they wouldn’t have happened if I wouldn’t have had the guidance from my parents, if I wouldn’t have had mentors around me and the team around me, but also the passion and curiosity constantly evolving.

SSR: Right. No, that’s so true. Can we go back to how you cooked for the Obamas? I forgot about that. What was that experience like?

MS: Well, it was amazing. It was also in the beginning of when the First Lady just started the garden mission. It was an opportunity to focus on vegetarian food, because also Prime Minister Singh [of India] was vegetarian. To really—in a thoughtful way—curate a menu, work on a menu that has to be executed under very specific time limits, so I loved the challenge. I loved the day. It was a challenge.

SSR: Yeah. That must have been an honor, too.

MS: Oh, amazing. I couldn’t tell you how kind they were to my team. After saying hi, goodnight, to 400 people, they ran into the kitchen and talked to every single one of my cooks, took pictures with the cooks, something they absolutely did not have to do. They knew the moment was big for the team. Even if they were tired, they were kind enough to do that. They’re very, very classy, amazing people.

SSR: What was the first restaurant, then, that you did on your own? Was that Aquavit?

MS: I mean, no one does anything on their own, but yeah, I got a job at Aquavit as a young cook, and then eventually I become the executive chef and eventually partner in the restaurant. Aquavit was an amazing experience for me. I learned about New York. I learned about America. I learned how to manage. I also had a chance to cook food that I knew really well that I grew up with. I didn’t have to second-guess what I wanted my food to be at that time because I knew that Scandinavian food was delicious. Maybe the world didn’t know about it, but I knew I wanted to break it down into building blocks, and I knew how to build.

SSR: Talk to me about opening Red Rooster in Harlem and evolving your food into Red Rooster.

MS: I think that as a chef, you have to evolve constantly, and Red Rooster is an example of that. I felt after the post-9/11 and post-financial crisis, I felt there was another conversation to be had. How can we make more democratization of food, and what would be more powerful than to do it in Harlem? Also for me, being a Black man, being an immigrant, I wanted to tell that story of those two experiences colliding in America. You know what I mean?

Harlem is a great community to tell that, because you have a huge African American population and the history of the Great Migrations, and then you also have a huge immigrant population. That was very important to me. All my work goes through that, right? You know, my podcast, “This Moment,” we talk about how it is as a creative Black father—how it is to be in America at this moment. The books that I do, we all cook and create based on the experiences we are given to us, and these are two of mine.

SSR: Right. Tell me a little more about your podcast. Do you bring on other people? Is it you just talking?

MS: Yeah. Well, “This Moment” is a podcast that my friend, Jason Diakité, who is an African American rapper living in Sweden, and I put together during the pandemic, actually. He’s African American, living in Sweden, and me being Swedish and American and Black, living in New York, what can we do as two creatives to share ideas? He’s used to a huge audience, I’m used to a big dining room being full, and how do we create when we don’t have our normal [day to day]? As fathers, when we don’t normally go to work in a way. This is a test, and we wanted to share those experiences. Then, in the spring, when it really became the spring of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter, the podcast really goes into that as well.

SSR: What have you been feeling through all this? I mean, it must be heartbreaking and infuriating all at the same time. What have been your thoughts, and how have you been leading your teams through it as well?

MS: Well, I think that as a Black person, there’s a certain closeness to these issues. In one way, you’re inspired because you’re glad that this is now being highlighted, but it’s not a Black issue. It’s an American issue. It’s an issue that we have to solve together, and dealing with different types of -isms that people have and biases. This is our generation. We have to work on improving that, whether it’s the Amy Cooper scenarios in the world, or Ahmaud Arbery or Breonna Taylor or George Floyd. Those are just horrific events happening right in front of us, but as Black people, we know this has been happening forever. This is not new. This is not related just to this spring.

SSR: Right. Right. It’s terrible that it’s still happening. Being a leader through this, through COVID, these times, what has been the greatest lesson you’ve learned to keep your team sane and together, and moving forward and trying to really keep going?

MS: Well, the beautiful thing in the hospitality industry is that you are teams, and we need each other. I just traveled for the first time in four months. I went to Miami to do the opening of our Red Rooster Overtown, our Creamery. It was amazing to see. Not as big a group as we wanted to see, but at least about 20 people that were back working again. Once those tickets started to come in, it was beautiful. Even when the machine broke down, we were laughing, because we’re now dealing with a restaurant issue, which we were all born to deal with, and that was a great feeling. I learned about gratitude, being grateful. I’ve learned about how much I really miss all of the aspects of this. It’s not just the creative part, but it’s the problem-solving and being a mentor, and meeting guests and listening to guests and really evolving as communities, whether it’s in Harlem or Overtown or Newark. It’s a very, very special time, that we just can’t wait to get back to. It’s not going to be like it was before, right?

It’s just not. Something has broken. Something has really happened here, but I’m here for it. There’s a lot of strength in everybody coming out of this. There’s a lot of sadness. We lost 120,000 people so far in this country [Editor’s Note: Since the recording of the podcast, more than 150,000 people have died from the coronavirus in the U.S.]. A lot of people came from our industry. Also at the same time, it’s very sad, right? So many of those 120,000 people who died are based on inequalities that we could have prevented, right? Healthcare system for all, et cetera. Who do you think is going to be exposed to that the most? You’re really exposed to the haves and [have nots], you know what I mean?

SSR: When you say it’s not going to be the same, how do you think it will affect the dining experience in general? Do you think there will be some longterm effects that you are considering or looking at? I mean, the good news, it seems that people are wanting to come back out, that they are social beings, but how do you think in terms of physical spaces, design, operations, that you will have to deal with moving forward?

MS: Well, I mean, it’s a little early. I don’t want to say things and then … I think we’re in the middle of it. It’s very early to know that, right? Well, you can take an example of, if you go back 15 years ago, what happened to music, right? People want to listen to music, but they just don’t even want to own CDs in the same way, right? It started with Napster, and then five years later, 10 years later, something like Spotify and that, or Apple with a music component to it. Now it’s landed in a way that it works. It works for the industry, it works for the listener, and it works for the writers in a way, right, but that was 15 years back and forth. Food might go in that direction. I don’t know what that means, but I know that people are going to cook. There are going to be consumers out there that’s going to want it, and how they want it; it’s very, very early to predict. I don’t think there’s one way.

SSR: No, that’s true. I mean, I think there’s going to be immediate things that we need to do, and then there’s going to be the next three, six months, and then further down the road. I think it’s ever evolving, and who knows what next year will look like. In terms of your brand, it’s exciting that you get to open up in Miami. Are you still thinking about expanding, and are there other openings in the works or things that you have going that are still going to happen, even amidst all of this?

MS: Well, I mean, what the future holds, I’ve learned not to predict, because if COVID showed us anything, it was like we’re not necessarily in charge. The virus is in charge. I tried to predict my opening in Miami to March 1st. That didn’t work out. I’m focused on what’s in front of me, which is now opening up the restaurant fully in Harlem and in Miami, being focused on my podcast “This Moment,” making sure it’s as good as possible. And I’m excited about The Rise, the cookbook. That’s plenty. Then if that leads to more, I think first we have to figure out—after all this—what’s left. I know that our Montreal restaurant is opening in the beginning of July. We’re slowly, slowly, slowly trying to come back.

SSR: How many restaurants do you have now?

MS: Well, I mean, we don’t know if everyone’s going to open back up. We have Montreal, we have Harlem, Miami. I know that my team is eager to get back, and we’ve worked really hard on trying to get back in the best possible way.

SSR: Yeah. Not an easy time. How have you stayed sane with your family? Have you been cooking a lot at home? What have you been doing to survive these last three months?

MS: Well, I mean, starting this moment, starting the podcast, was really part of that, right? It was a way to process what’s really happening. Then also, I’m so lucky that every day when I wake up, my wife is here, my son is healthy, and that’s not something you can take for granted. A lot of people in my community have gone through COVID. Those were the two first things. Then the fact that having our son—he’s so full of life, and that has been for us, when as in the adult world when you’re dealing with everything and it’s very dim and difficult news, it’s been great to have a 3 year old running around. It just breaks up the day in an amazing way.

SSR: Yeah, exactly. I have three small children, so I totally understand. They definitely keep you busy. You said that you had a lot of amazing mentors along the way. Has there been a piece of advice that has resonated with you or helped you achieve the success that you have achieved?

MS: I mean, there’s many. Like Ms. Leah Chase, she was a big mentor and inspiration to me. Looking at her restaurant opened in the ’40s and the restaurant, fifth generation, is still around in NOLA. Talking to her daughter, Stella, and talking to Ms. Leah about all the challenges that they had through the Civil Rights Movement, through Katrina. Some real tough times, and they’re more active than ever. I look at that as an inspiration. I also look at coming from Africa and the tough time that Ethiopia has had, and you can go through. I draw inspiration from very different places.

SSR: If you had to predict, do you think the industry will get back on its feet quicker than people expected, or do you think there’s still a lot more that needs to be done from the government and from the individual cities, as we open up and figure out how to operate in this new abnormal?

MS: First of all, the country is vast, and restaurants work locally, and it’s very different for every place. I think like we in New York, we have to follow the guidelines here and that can be very different than if you’re a seasonal restaurant on Martha’s Vineyard or if you’re in Hawaii, you know what I mean? I think that have a huge challenge in front of us as an industry and as a country. I hope all 11 million of us that work in the hospitality industry, plus the 6 million that work in the food chain, get their jobs back. That’s really my hope and goal for everyone, because I know America needs us, and we need our jobs back.

SSR: Well, Marcus, thank you so much for taking this time. I really do appreciate it and hope to see you in real life sooner rather than later.

MS: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. You can follow me on @MarcusCooks, and I’ll have my predictions right there. All right?

SSR: You’re saving them all there. I can’t wait to read your book, too.

MS: Thank you. Thanks so much.